And the "religious" Christmas is not a Christian holiday, it's a Pagan holiday. (You all know this, of course?)

I wonder why Halloween catches shit for being a "devil worshipping" celebration, but Christmas isn't treated equally?

The root of Holiday is "Holy," after all.

Yule is a Pagan Holiday.

Christmas is Christ's Mass. Yes, the date was chosen because of proximity to the night of Yule, (or possibly the feast day of the God Mithras) and the seculrized elements, the tree, holly, misseltoe, and giving of presents are essentially Pagan, but the celebration of the Birth of Jesus, whether they located it in April or December, is a decidely Christian festival.

Pagan themes run through the secularized versions of the other Christian Holidays as well. Candlemas = Imbolc, Easter = Ostara, Samhain = All Saints and All Souls Days, and so on, but as celebrated by Christians, they are days of Christian Worship.

In some strict Christian Churches, it is. The Puritans didn't celebrate Christmas, as such, and according to a friend of mine, in the early days of the United States, unless it fell on a Sunday, December 25th was an ordinary day of business in the United States, including Congress convening for session.

Very detailed text only page about the History of Christmas

These holidays have an illigegitimate, opportunistic veneer of Christianity on their surfaces.

The secular one does. :cool:

Hardly a coincidence since the secular one is an offshoot of the religious one. :rolleyes:

Yes really. :rolleyes:

The thing I find the most amusing about this fussing over the issue of whether to accept the talking Jesus doll is that realistically, kids want cool toys for whatever holiday they have (Christmas, Hannakuh, Quanza or whatever).

Can you see the expression on a kids face when he and his siblings are opening their donated presents. One sibling gets a bike and another gets some kind of remote controlled race car. And he gets a stupid talking Jesus doll?!?!?!

Talk about dissapointment! :sniff: :mad: :( :finger:

This Jesus toy is better IMHO! ;)

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/jesus.php

Jesus Christ Action Figure

"Watch Jesus as he smashes up the tax collectors tables!, Stand in awe as he heals the hideous lepers! Now with movable limbs!" Figure shown not actual size

Miracles not shown actual size. ;)

For the record, I find the whole concept of a talking Jesus doll objectionable.

That said, would people on this forum be writing posts like this about Allah or Mohammed dolls? Shiva dolls? Moses dolls?etc. Or would they find such posts objectionable based on the lack of respect shown for those who sincerely follow the Muslim, Hindu, or Jewish religions? I realize the idea is to sneer at the evangelicals, hopefully in terms of their trivialization of Jesus Christ, whom serious Christians acknowledge and avow to be both the Son of God and God. The posts, however, veer dangerously close to sneering at Christians and Christianity in general.

While there are some (many?) on the forum who do sneer at Christianity, I hope they believe in freedom of religion to the extent that they will tolerate others holding views different from their own. Civil debate is always a good thing. Egregious insults and intolerance of others are not.

I don't think this is an issue of separation of church and state. The Marines were offered a 'religious' item to give away at Christmas, which, yes, is a Christian holiday. (Just because lots of folks like to celebrate the original Pagan version doesn't mean Christmas isn't Christian.) They declined because they were worried about giving Jewish or Muslim kids a Jesus doll (and when did observant Jews and Muslims start lining up for Christmas presents? Anyone know?). As an observant Christian, I wouldn't be lining up for Eid al Fitr feasts or presents for my kids, nor for Hannukah presents, nor for Dhivali 'goodies'. Nothing against these holidays, I just don't celebrate them.

The company is now giving most of the dolls away directly to those who have requested them. The Marines may give some away - to those who want them. Am I understanding this correctly?

As I understand it, the government is not to establish any religion, i.e. force it on people or make it the official government religion. Marines giving away religious items to those who want them does neither.

But giving religious things away to those who DIDN'T ask for them is, while not the same as, very close to, forcing it on them.

Just staying out of religion altogether is the ONLY okay choice.

And there are plenty out there that don't want to get that intimate with Jesus, even if they are in the Bible Belt.

There are plenty of Jews who celebrate the secular aspects of Christmas, as well as plenty of athiests and others who just don't know what to believe.

For the Marines giving-back program, it is much more useful to have mainstream products available since they don't have details (such as religious beliefs) on every individual getting the gifts.