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-   -   There are no illegal immigrants in America (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=16263)

classicman 01-02-2008 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 421082)
We THE people of the United States. It's very clear that it refers to the people of the United States....aka the people living inside the United States.

You are so full of crap - How many times have YOU stated "they meant EXACTLY what they said"? If they menat "the people living in the US" they would have said that. Since they didn't specifically say "the people living in the US", then they DID NOT MEAN THAT. How thick are you?

classicman 01-02-2008 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 421087)
If a uniform rule of naturalization states that a felon can't be naturalized, it does not mean they can't become an immigrant.

...and an illegal one at that.

Radar 01-02-2008 10:46 PM

They did say that. We THE PEOPLE of the United States refers to the people in the United States. That's what it says.

Let me make it more clear for you. Before there was a United States, there were only people. They weren't citizens, they were just people living in America. In the Declaration of Independence, the founders said that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". Government gets its powers from the people who are governed. Government may not have any powers that individuals do not have without government.

Since all of the people living within the borders of the United States are subject to the Constitutionally valid laws of the United States, they are "governed" by the U.S. Government. Not some people....ALL people.

The U.S. Government derives its powers from THE PEOPLE who are governed by the U.S. Government, and yes this includes non-citizens and undocumented immigrants. They are also subject to all of the laws of the United States which do not contradict the Constitution (such as immigration laws). If they commit murder, they go to jail. If they steal, they go to jail, etc.

They are absolutely part of WE THE PEOPLE.

Undertoad 01-02-2008 10:48 PM

An immigrant would surely be a "person of France living in the United States". An immigrant wouldn't describe themselves as a person of the United States. He's got you dead to rights, so to speak.

classicman 01-02-2008 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 421090)
They did say that. We THE PEOPLE of the United States refers to the people in the United States. That's what it says.

no it refers to the people OF the US not in. It is very clear. No playing with this one. If the meant "in" they would have said "in". The two words (in & of) have very different meanings. By your own admission they meant exactly what they wrote - "of "
At best, it is up for interpretation which is what we are doing now and you still lose because everything else is therefore up for interpretation as well.

You are too smart a guy to not see the reality right in front of you.

regular.joe 01-02-2008 10:55 PM

It depends on what your definition of of is.

classicman 01-02-2008 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by regular.joe (Post 421098)
It depends on what your definition of of is.

Take a look at any dictionary and defining the word "of" is never "the"
Although we can discuss and debate it. I am wiiling to do that. That still proves the point of "interpretation"

Radar 01-02-2008 10:58 PM

It's not up for interpretation. It means we the people of the united states.

You keep highlighting the word "of" as though that means something special when it does not. The people who are governed by the United States are THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES. This is where the government drives its powers.

Radar 01-02-2008 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 421091)
An immigrant would surely be a "person of France living in the United States". An immigrant wouldn't describe themselves as a person of the United States. He's got you dead to rights, so to speak.

Immigrants are those who live here. If a French immigrant lives in America and he travels to Brazil and someone asks where he is here from, he will say he is in Brazil FROM the United States. He is Pierre OF Idaho. Nothing needs to be interpreted and nothing is vague no matter how much you try to make it so.

Undertoad 01-02-2008 11:01 PM

It derives its powers from being elected by... the people of the United States. The citizens, the voters.

classicman 01-02-2008 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 421102)
It's not up for interpretation. It means we the people of the united states.

You keep highlighting the word "of" as though that means something special when it does not. The people who are governed by the United States are THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES. This is where the government drives its powers.


Radar, That is not even worthy of a response. You are trying to switch the argument to the derrivation of power and to governance.

I would love to debate that with you right after we finish up this one, if you please. One thing at a time.
Please agree that:
1) the writers meant exactly what they wrote
(you have already done this numerous times) and
2) "of" is not the same as "the"

Radar 01-02-2008 11:05 PM

Wrong. It derives its powers from the CONSENT of the governed....the permission of the people. It exercises those powers through people becoming elected.

classicman 01-02-2008 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar (Post 421104)
Immigrants are those who live here. If a French immigrant lives in America and he travels to Brazil and someone asks where he is here from, he will say he is in Brazil FROM the United States. He is Pierre OF Idaho. Nothing needs to be interpreted and nothing is vague no matter how much you try to make it so.

Depends on if he is a legal or illegal immigrant.

Radar 01-02-2008 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman (Post 421108)
Radar, That is not even worthy of a response. You are trying to switch the argument to the derrivit4ion of power and to governance.

I would love to debate that with you rifght after we finish up this one.
Plese agree that:
1) the writers meant exactly what they wrote
(you have already done this numerous times) and
2) "of" is not the same as "the"

1. The writers mean exactly what they wrote, and it's not vague, ambiguous, or in need of "interpretation".

2. The people OF the United States refers to all of the people who are governed by the United States. All of them are OF the United States because the United States derives its powers from their consent.

Radar 01-02-2008 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman (Post 421110)
Depends on if he is a legal or illegal immigrant.

There is no difference in America since the Federal government isn't granted any powers over immigration by the U.S. Constitution.


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