I am very saddened, even a bit angry that four men and women that I've known this year have died of alcoholism. They died, in part, because they partook in a therapy for alcoholism that at best has a 10% recovery rate. They participated in this therapy in a fellowship that allows membership to just about anyone; which I think is amazing and would never want to change. While rejecting the core tenants and most of the practices of the same recovery program that the fellowship they are a member of espouses to and in fact was created by. A program that at best has a 60% recovery rate. If this makes me the bad guy in this whole thing, then I will take that.

I don't have the mantle of alcoholism, I'm just another drunk. I do know the differences between the messages that can be talked around our amazing fellowship. I have over 20 years of experience watching the effectiveness or lack there of, of the various and sundry practices found around the AA fellowship. We are given absolute freedom within the confines of the Third Tradition, and the Program is suggested. So, please..please, go to meetings, talk about your problems, read the literature, bring into your consciousness, when you need to, how bad that last drunk was. I sincerely hope this works for you, and if it does I am very happy for you indeed.

What if, Joe, what if you simply do not believe a God of any kind exists?

Dana, fortunately there are many other philosophies of life, therapies, and manners of living that don't require beliefe in and reliance upon some kind of God. Please remember that I do not advocate denying membership in the AA fellowship to anyone. Ever. I advocate telling the truth of what the AA Program is and how the AA program describes alcoholism which leads to the AA Programs solution to alcoholism, especially as it differs from the message found at large in the AA Fellowship.

Oh come on. Being a member of AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than NOT being a member of AA is guarantee of failure.

Who said that being a member of AA guarantees sobriety?

joe is just saying that HIS brand of sobriety works 100% and those foolish enough not to follow his good example, well...sometimes they die.

Keep coming back, joe.

I hope and pray that I do get to keep coming back Bri. I'd like to summarize a few things as I see them, at least this morning.

Bri did ask me "how do you stay sober?" I answered very honestly, by the response, I am thinking that you did not really want my honest answer. I cannot change the facts of my own life, my answer stands as it is today.

To repeat myself I'll quote from my past posts:

"If that works and continues to work for you, my hat is truly off. I really do think that is great."

"if going to meetings and participating in group therapy, talking with your sponsor, reading our literature, and finally thinking about the details of your last detox will keep you sober...I"M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU."

"please..please, go to meetings, talk about your problems, read the literature, bring into your consciousness, when you need to, how bad that last drunk was. I sincerely hope this works for you, and if it does I am very happy for you indeed."

I am at a loss on how to express in a different mannor my happiness that you are staying sober. That the method of your doing so differes from mine is of no consequence to me, other then as a source of honest discussion.

so, I've said my peace, I wish you and stormi both well. My sincerest appologies if I've offended you both. May God as you understand God bless and keep you both as you trudge the road of happy destiny. If I am as sick, narcissistic, and intolerant at you are suggiting I am then I can certainly use your prayers as well. I'll be taking a break from the thread for a while I hope to see you around the cellar at least.

Just in case you havent left yet, that wasn't the part people objected to, or found offensive. It was the bit where you claimed that someone who was able to say no to a drink without giving themselves over to God isn't really an alki. That was the bit. Where you diminished someone else's experience of alcoholism because they'd found something that works from within themselves.

I daresay it wasn't meant in anoffensive way. it was probably meant to be supportive. But that isn't what came across.

And you are bringing it up again because...? Just let it go.

Because I wanted joe to understand what had caused offence. Since he clearly didn't. As he said he was 'at a loss' how to better express his happiness that bri was staying sober. Just thought it worth letting him know that wasn't where the problem lay.



And what are you anyway? The thread police? :p

I think the message was received. I thought he was gracefully trying to convey that he was "happy" for them and he apologized. What more do you want from him?

Yes I'm the Dana thread police. I'll follow you everywhere just to make sure you're being naughty & not nice.

Honestly, I think the wrong message was received. And, yes, he was gracefully trying to convey exactly that and that's good. But he clearly didn't have a clue about what had sparked stuff off. In which case this whole thing must seem arbitrary and out the blue. And that's a shit way to leave it.

I picked up my third year chip last May. I don't go to as many meetings as I did three years ago, but I still go to meetings. I don't read the Big Book much because I find it out-dated and stilted. Good grief, they still hang on to that chapter called "To Wives." Give me a break. AA started out as very much of an old boys' club. Bill Wilson was a stock broker and Dr. Bob was - well, a doctor. Some meetings in the early days wouldn't even allow a female alcoholic through the door. One woman writes about standing in the hall outside of the meeting trying to hear what was going on.

Some people treat that damn Big Book as if it were directly dictated to Bill W. by god. It's simply a book written back in the 30's about the experiences of a hundred or so people trying to stay sober. The Big Book does have some good stuff in it if you disregard some of its more egregious passages. The fellowship of AA keeps me sober more than anything else. That and the knowledge that alcohol no longer works for me and will never work for me again. The memory of the hell of my last 2 years of drinking will never leave my mind. Not ever. Those awful memories keep me sober as well.

I don't have a personal "Higher Power" who keeps me sober. If someone else does, good on them. Alcoholism (and other addictions) is an extremely pernicious condition. Alcoholics are far more likely to die rather than recover, and many times relapse seems to be an almost random event. I've seen people who did everything by the book go out for no apparent reason and end up killing themselves. Other people seem like completely hopeless cases, never go to AA or treatment, never "get religion," but still sober up and stay that way for the rest of their lives. But people in this last catagory are still as sick as any other alcoholic.

No one absolutely no one deserves to become an alcoholic and they especially don't deserve to die of alcoholism. I have seen my share of good people give it their best effort and still fail. I never critisize them because there but for the grace of whatever go I.

Sam I agree with all of the above. A LOT of people treat the BB as though it were directly from God's mouth to Bill's ear. Well, Bill W. had a LOT of problems. Nobody's perfect. AA was started by two rich white guys whose wives stood by them thru it all - all the ugliness and all the nuttiness at the beginning of AA. Bill opened his (and her) home to alkies trying to get sober and one of them commited suicide in their bathroom...I wonder how Lois felt about THAT and who cleaned it up? (Lois, perhaps?)

I didn't need my ego broken down when I got to AA. It already WAS broken down. I needed building UP. Old Timers don't get that. and the chapter "To Wives" - ? ugh. don't get me started.

AA does a lot of good. It's not for everybody and it certainly could drag itself into the 21st century.

Bri. I just happened upon this article & thought of you.