The Cellar - Osama Bin Laden is Dead!!!

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- - Osama Bin Laden is Dead!!! (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=25119)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana (Post 731051)

Just don't stick them in your ear...:)

like no one does that:rolleyes:

Eargasm! :p:

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinite monkey (Post 731057)

Eargasm! :p:

so earwax is essentially the cum of the ear?? :rolleyes:

A bigger version of that Princess's hat picture.

I'm actually really impressed with this. Whoever did this took the time to collect several different pictures of the hat so they could put it correctly on everyone's head, according to the angle in relation to the camera.

Ali, I thought you would love this video. Not everyone is dancing in the streets, that's for sure. This kid looks like a downright noodge! As I mentioned yesterday, I've heard nary a word on this campus. Takes all kinds. ;)

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/off...ant.cnn?hpt=T2

I got a video about possible rail attacks on the anniversary of 9/11. Not sure if that's what you were directing me to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969 (Post 730976)

What I WANT is the ability to use unconventional methods to break these people and have them give up information which can potentially save thousands of lives!

I don't consider the techniques that I have heard used (making someone stand for many hours at a time, sleep deprivation or threatening their families with death) torture in the classic sense. And while waterboarding (simulated drowning) may be terrifying to the person on the receiving end, these methods are designed to not cause permanent physical injury. These methods are MAINLY psychological in nature.

Are you saying that you would be against these methods being used if they stopped another 9-11 here or in another country?

Yes. Torture is inexcusable. Any civilization that would tolerate it is unworthy of the name. There are some prices for safety that are simply too high...Not because of what torture does to your enemy, but because of what it does to you.

It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969 (Post 730996)

Agreed, but you can't lump enemy combatants in the same category as civilian criminals. We can't arrest them, have them pay bail and promise to show up for court. Anyone in Gitmo is not there for mugging an old lady or shoplifting...they have direct or indirect ties to terrorism.

People are remanded without bail all the time. They still get trials.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uday (Post 731299)

It is impossible to both torture and to be the "good guy". You have to choose.

Some of us disagree with that on a theoretical level. Unfortunately most of us don't trust our government or "deciders" any further than we can throw them so... guess we're all screwed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uday (Post 731299)

Well said.

Ditto RE: DanaC RE: Well said, Uday.

I think Bob Dylan said "Ya gotta serve somebody..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123 (Post 731333)

Some of us disagree with that on a theoretical level. Unfortunately most of us don't trust our government or "deciders" any further than we can throw them so... guess we're all screwed.

You forfeit the privilage to complain when our citizens are tortured up to and including the "theoretical level" of torture that you choose to be acceptable for our enemy. If you think waterboarding an AQ operative is acceptable, you can't complain when dmg's mom or General Petraeus is waterboarded.

Let me, once again, remind you of what happens when radical Islamists are finished interrogating you...

http://www.veteransforacademicfreedo...ng-300x230.jpg

Waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't seem so bad now, do they?

I don't see how that is a valid point dmg? Here is a good article that I feel lays down some very good points against torture.

Quote:

In fact, the information about the existence of a courier working for bin Laden was provided by several detainees, not just waterboarded al Qaeda operatives Kalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi -- we had one detainee in Iraq who provided information about a courier in 2006. The key pieces of information, however, were the courier's real name and location. His family name was first uncovered by CIA assets in Pakistan through other sources. The NSA subsequently figured out his full real name and location from an intercepted phone call. Waterboarding had nothing to do with it.

........

Understanding these cultural nuances is just one critical skill interrogators must have to be effective. The other is an understanding of the social science behind interrogations, which tells us that torture has an extremely negative effect on memory. An interrogator needs timely and accurate intelligence information, not just made-up babble.

What torture has proven is exactly what experienced interrogators have said all along: First, when tortured, detainees will give only the minimum amount of information necessary to stop the pain. No interrogator should ever be hoping to extract the least amount of information. Second, under coercion, detainees give misleading information that wastes time and resources -- a false nickname, for example. Finally, it's impossible to know what information the detainee would have disclosed under non-coercive interrogations.

.....

the fact that torture handed al Qaeda its No. 1 recruiting tool, a fact confirmed by the U.S. Department of Defense's interrogators in Iraq who questioned foreign fighters about why they had come there to fight. (I have first-hand knowledge of this information because I oversaw many of these interrogations and was briefed on the aggregate results.) In addition, future detainees will be unwilling to cooperate from the onset of an interrogation because they view all Americans as torturers. I heard this repeatedly in Iraq, where some detainees accused us of being the same as the guards at Abu Ghraib.

The more you think about, the less sense torture makes. U.S. allies will become unwilling to conduct joint operations if they are concerned about how detainees will be treated in U.S. custody (an argument made by the 9/11 Commission, among others). And future enemies will use our actions as justification to torture American captives. Torture also lowers our ethical standards to those of our enemies, an ugly shift that spreads like a virus throughout the Armed Services; witness the abuses of Abu Ghraib or the recent murders of civilians in Afghanistan.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...logic?page=0,0

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969 (Post 731378)

When you compare it to what the dredges of humanity do, hacking off hands and feet don't seem so bad, either, now do they?

We're supposed to be the good guys. We're not supposed to torture. That's what makes the bad guys bad.