If your desire to stay sober can stand between you and a drink, you're not an alki. You are a person who can not drink. If you can decide what you want and decide not to drink, you are not an alki. You are a person who has found a sufficient reason to not drink, and decided to not drink.

I'm an alkie, regular.joe. A real one - not those kind on TV. If I do NOT take the first drink, I'm ok; if I take a drink --- all bets are off and I could wind up anywhere - even dead.

What is it that stands between you and a drink if not your desire to live a better, sober life?

Oh, wait. I'll bet it's GOD. One persons Higher Power is another person's Oak Tree.

Bri, dont worry about being on your high horse. Your sharing is much appreciated.

saying I'm not an alcoholic is really rather...funny to me.

That's the first time someone has ever suggested that I'm NOT one.

:lol:

I tried that road of living life on my desire to live a better life sober. Got me nowhere. If that works and continues to work for you, my hat is truly off. I really do think that is great.

Well. then how do you stay sober? I cannot simply say, "God, keep me sober today!" read a meditation and then go about my day only to come home at night, say "thanks, god!" and close my eyes.

I go to meetings. I have a sponsor. I read literature (AA and other inspirational) I talk to people and I go to a therapist every two weeks. All those things are wonderful and helpful but there have been times when I could get no one on the phone, there was no meeting to run to and I drove to the liquor store. I sat in the parking lot going over my last detox in my mind, with all the detail I could muster.

Then I drove away. I decided not to drink. How is that NOT alcoholic?

If going over your last detox will keep you sober forever, then I'll maintain you are a heavy drinker who has found a sufficient reason to stop. If on the other hand there will come a time when you will not be able to muster the where withall to not buy the next bottle, if that is inevitable...coupled with what you have already told me, that you will be off to the races (we call this the phenomenon of craving), you are an alcoholic.

Going to meetings, having a sponsor, reading aa literature and talking to people will not spell the necessary relief. The only reason I read AA literature is to know what is says so that I can do what it says. The AA program is designed to be, and must be practiced independent of meetings. So, how do I stay sober??? I don't have to, the problem has been removed with no thought or effort on my part. First I made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him. Then I painstakingly, and precisely followed and continue to follow the directions outlined in our book. I get it, I didn't buy what I thought was snake oil to begin with either. It came down to one of two choices for me, blot out my life to the bitter end, or seek spiritual aid. Now, I ask for inspiration to meet the things that I don't know how to handle, for intuitive thoughts and decisions, for freedom from my self will. All day every day. I have had, and continue to seek after experience with the God of my understanding who handles this problem for me. I am a recovered alcoholic, I go to meetings to try to pass this information on to the next real alki who is sitting confused amongst a whole lot of people who apparently can decide to not drink anymore and just go to meetings and read inspirational books.

wow. If I wasn't spiritually fit today I'd say you're a real dick, regular.joe.

Kidding!

SO - what you're saying is that while I simply ape the program you LIVE the program. You've had the elusive Spiritual Experience! Good for you. But do me favor, will you?
Keep coming back because your humility quotient could use some tweeking. If you were trying to diss me by intimating that I "sit confused....JUST go to meetings and read inspirational books" that's pretty high handed of you.

What's that saying?

Oh, yeah: Live and let live.

And to even suggest that my way isn't the real way and that I am not a "real" alcoholic tells me you know virtually nothing about me. I'll bet if I saw you in a meeting I'd steer very clear of you and your chest thumping.

Peace be with you - but I don't have to be.

I think we all need to accept that people are impacted by alcohol in different ways. Maybe we need to get over labels if they're getting in the way. The Alki® experience can be different. I wouldn't want Bri's experience as the spurs are in pretty deep. My experience has been less traumatic but I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have no need for a label, you can have it, but I still can't have a drink. I simply can't. Reading back through this thread, I see my post about Anna Quinlin having a very similar relationship to alcohol as I do. For both of us it is wound up in Roman Catholic bullshit so naturally I'm not going to embrace any God® driven way of dealing with it. If God works for you keep with it, but understand that for some of us putting the responsibility on something other than ourselves is what got us into difficulty in the first place. If you want to limit your personal definition of alcoholism to people with the exact experience as you, fine enjoy your club, but minimizing others pain is pretty goddamned selfish.

Ah, that's a problem I always forget to consider--I always think of meds in terms of just holding them down and making them take it. :) No worries about high horses, I don't see you that way at all. I am glad you are willing to share so much of your story.

True on all counts, not humble, arrogant, and people do avoid me at meetings.

I don't think I've been clear though. I've really only put out the definition of alcoholic as outlined in our book. If when you drink you develop the phenomenon of craving, and if at certain times you can't bring to consciousness with sufficient force the reasons not to drink and you drink again setting in motion the phenomenon of craving, well you are alcoholic. We either fit this description or not. This is not a self description, it's clearly outlined in our literature. If this is arrogant of me, and lacking in humility then so be it. I am tired of watching alkies die around our fellowship. Four this year alone, one suicide, one drunk driving fatality, two alcohol poisoning. The were meeting makers, sponsor callers and book readers. They all said, and hung with the crowd that said they could do this with out some kind of God, that they could just play the tape through and gut it out a day at a time. They spent a lot of time "working on themselves".

I've already told you and I really did mean it that if going to meetings and participating in group therapy, talking with your sponsor, reading our literature, and finally thinking about the details of your last detox will keep you sober...I"M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU. There are a small number of us, at least by my reckoning, that the only relief is provided by Providence, Higher Power, Spirit of the Universe, Creative Intelligence of the Universe...what ever you want to call it. It ain't an oak tree or a door knob. You have made it clear that you can do with out this Thing. My hat is off to you, truly. I would ask that you be careful, because my message that a certain population of us can only recover through the growth and maintenance of a spiritual experience will not kill you. I get it, it pisses you off....the arrogance! The fellowships message that I can recover by doing anything but, will kill a guy like me.

You've been very clear. You seem to think the mantle of alcoholism is limited by your own narrow definition. Perhaps you did not read my previous posts closely - or even at all. I DO subscribe to a spiritual transformation - but I do not believe 'god' will/can keep me sober. I've got to do what I've got to do to remain vertically connected to my Oak Tree - which, if you knew anything at all about HP, you'd know that I CAN TOO HAVE AN OAK TREE FOR MY HP! So there, you pedantic thumper! Nyah!

I, in fact, canNOT do without this "thing" - I NEED my meetings to combat the isolation and craziness of my own head. I NEED my sponsor and literature to supplement my days with positive, life-affirming messages. YOU have made it plain that YOU've been "touched by an angel" and no longer suffer the problem of alcoholism. YOU ARE CURED! Good for you. Now kindly allow those of us who are striving for the kind of perfectionism you have achieved in peace.

And your use of "OUR" literature is offensive. The literature is for anyone WHO HAS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING. In fact, that's the only requirement for membership - or do you control that, too?

It's people like you who run off all the baby newcomers. You freak them out with your nuttiness.

btw - if your problem has been removed, why bother with meetings at all? To enlighten dumbfucks like me? You've got it all figured out. You should try to package and sell that stuff.

I find it rather insulting that anyone would minimize and dismiss the struggles that I (and Bri, I'm sure) go through to remain sober. It has taken an enormous amount of strength and willpower to remain sober.

To look down your nose at another person who has accepted their alcoholism and who is doing what they need to do in order to get/stay off the booze is incredibly offensive. Who are you to decide who is a "real alkie" and who is merely a heavy drinker who is confused and not currently drinking? Really? :eyebrow:

I am not religious. I do not believe in 'GOD" as some entity that oversees the universe. However, I am spiritual and I firmly believe that I can accomplish whatever I choose with my willpower and inner strength.

You have NO idea the things I've survived in my life. But I know that, since I managed to survive those things, that I can say no to the bottle and not pick it back up. If I want to badly enough. And so far, my will to live is winning over my desire to destroy myself.

Because every day, I find an excuse to drink. And every day, I remind myself of the reasons not to.

Right now, today, I've been sober for 3258 days.

Just wanted to give my support to you guys who are trying! I have family and friends who have problems but don't want the change (yet? I can always hope) so it felt really good in an odd way to hear your stories about trying to change or stop. I can't offer any advice since growing up with so many alcoholics has kept me from drugs/alcohol but I'm MORE than happy to offer support and thank yous' on behalf of your friends and families. I can't imagine how hard it must be, thank you for having the strength and courage to try in the first place.

Four people died. And you didn't say "I could have helped find something more meaningful for them." You said "They fucked up by not finding the meaning that I did. I did my part... I told them they were not going to succeed without MY meaning."

And they failed, and now they are dead... and you take their deaths as proud proof you were right.

For your sake, I hope your God judges this situation differently than I have done.