Why are you being such an ass? I am entitled to my opinion, which by the way, is the same as millions of other Americans. I have learned about this stuff over the past 8 years. I am not an expert, and I don't believe I have ever suggested otherwise.

yes, but we usually change for the better, not the other way around. How can we hold ourselves up as the moral beacons we claim to be if we engage in torture?

You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim. Absolutely nothing.

If you support torture, you're scum.

It really is that simple.

But that is always sufficient proof to extremists. It proved global warming does not exist. It proved that "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter". It proved that stem cell research only kills people. It proved we did not have secret prisons. It proved we were not torturing. Then it proved we were torturing because only torture could extract intelligence. It also proved that Saddam and bin Laden conspired to create 11 September. It even proved that Saddam had WMDs. Why do you always forget that last sentence?

Which standard are we using? One routinely found in Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, and Fox News reality? One that also justifies lying? Or one that is exists in science, logic, and history?

Why the double standard? Oh. One standard for proof routinely used lies - ie a court case in Dover PA or Terry Schiavo incident.

Reality, the only way to 'turn' someone means no torture. But then six years of torturing John McCain proves that torture works? They even tortured one 'terrorist' 183 times in one month and still could not get the *truth*? Reality: only when 24 (a TV show) becomes proof that torture works. And yes, the tone is fully appropriate because I am using the attitude used by those who advocate torture.

Those who first need facts before knowing have repeatedly defined torture as useless - including the FBI. Those with a long history of knowing only because that is the extremist political agenda are also advocating torture. Coincidence? So we should believe their denials? In the real world, one believes how Jordan and Indonesia turned terrorist - not how wacko extremist Americans say it must have happened.

That is the nature of extremism. First one knows. Later one learns why they should know. How curious. Exact same logic was used to keep torturing someone 183 times in one month until he said what he *knows*.

Maybe Jordan did not really turn those extremists. Does not matter. We know only extremists advocate torture. An only because they are told to believe it using emotion and even a TV show.

Let’s see. Hundreds of facts all show how torture does nothing productive. And yet the same extremists deny it without any proof and with what extremists also routinely do - lie. Simple benchmark. Some are more centrists. Others only believe what they are told to believe. Which ones did Hitler need to come to power? Not an insult. A damning question - also called a lesson from history.

Which ones did he already have? The conservatives, liberals or socialists?

I can't fucking believe you just drew that comparison.

:neutral:

The conservatives. They make the best nationalists, and he was busy scrapping with the communists at the time.

Sug, post your opinion, but if you post it with that smarmy "Please don't tell me you didn't already know this", make sure you get it exactly right, or we have the right and the responsibility to pwn your ass.

I doubt la Pop will learn that until she's had her lily-pale ass pwnd a couple times. Her thinking is yet unsophisticated -- and very clone-y. Won't be pleasant, but it may mature her, and her understanding.

Meanwhile, exerpted:

From here.

Hey, tw, has or has not the Arctic ice cap largely expanded (like by about a fifth), not shrunk, in the past two years? That some are saying that somehow this is evidence that global warming marches on tells me the global climate models still have systemic limitations. I'm not putting much faith in these doomsday extrapolations, because I have experience with them. And those various doomsdays were supposed to be ten years ago. Or so.

To whom? Certainly not to me, and tw thinks I'm the kind of wacko extremist who'd accept it. I can't name anyone of my acquaintance who did.

Tw believes somebody else, somewhere in America, must believe that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. It's a stupid belief the Left has. He is secure in this belief because he's never tested it. Again, I can't name a single American who does think Saddam did it, which would seem to rather test the idea. What a silly idea tw has. And he can't let go of the silly. Well is the Left served.

WMD's? Yeah, it transpires that the assessment that Iraq had a viable WMD capability was an intelligence mistake -- one shared globally among every single intelligence service that concerned itself with Iraqi military strengths. It simply tells us that Iraq had everyone fooled. I think it was mainly for CYA in midlevel Iraqi officialdom. If your dictator tells you to create WMD, you don't tell him you're failing, or you really can't, unless you like getting executed in imaginative ways. So you get really determined about your CYA just to keep breathing. It also transpired that while Saddam didn't have viable WMD up and running, it was not for want of trying, nor for want of burying key apparatus where they hoped arms inspectors wouldn't look, like scientists' backyards. If ever Ba'ath Iraq got the chance, they'd hare right on after their own WMD.

So now, there's no Ba'athist Party left in Iraq.

From the NRO link above

There you have it. Now it comes down to what you want to believe.

The NRO item is old and sometimes wrong based on what's come out since; for example, Mr Goldberg says the detainees were WB'd for a total of less than five minutes, which doesn't concur at all with the numbers listed in the torture memos.

I saw that too. I wasn't sure whether this was correct or the memo's, so I let it be.