OH yeah, I forgot about that! Stupid me huh?

If the United States Government were to dissolve, or to suddenly give all land to American Indian tribes, any deeds I have would be void. I wouldn't have much to say about it. I would never give land back to the indigenous Americans because they never owned it in the first place. You can't give something back to someone who never had it in the first place.

I'll tell you something I wouldn't do. I wouldn't start training my daughter to hate the American Indians or to blow them up. I, unlike the American Indians actually do own my land, and if my deed were made void, I'd fight to defend it, but not if it would risk the lives of my wife or daughter. If it got too ugly, I'd cut my losses and move somewhere else. I'd act like a reasonable and rational person and move on.

Radar, do you see anything wrong with the logic you've just employed in this last post of yours?

If so, go ahead and share. If not, you're a lost cause.

In the eyes of the anti-Zionists, Israel shouldn't be allowed to exist or to defend themselves when attacked. Clearly its these people who don't feel that Israel should be held to the same standards. Israel is trying to live under the same standards. When people attack them, they attack back. Israel has never ever ever ever ever been the aggressor, and has ALWAYS been the defender. Every use of force on the part of Israel has been in DEFENSE, and every attack against Israel has been OFFENSIVE.

You can bet your ass that if Mexico started blowing up Americans in Southern California, America wouldn't make concessions, offer land, give food, clothing, and shelter, or otherwise assist those people. You can bet your life if this happened consistently for decade after decade, Mexico would be taken over entirely and a huge number of their population would be destroyed.

Israel has the power to destroy all of its neighbors without any help from America. The only thing stopping this is Israel's own restraint. Were I in charge of a nation and my neighbors were blowing up my people for decades, I'd kill each and every single living thing in that country if it would save the people in mine. I'd give them the choice to live in peace or to rest in peace. This is what Israel should do.

Israel should put the fate of the so-called Palestinians in their own ability to stop their people from attacking Israeli Jews. Let them know in no uncertain terms that if there is a single attack against Jews, every man, woman, and child will be allowed to evacuate and those who don't will be killed. This would mean the so-called Palestinians would report all of their own people who planned attacks for fear of losing everything. They would kill these people before they could kill Jews.

There is no flaw in my logic. You suggestion that I have such a flaw is based on the notion that if I fight for my land, I'm the same as the so-called Palestinians. The difference is they N-E-V-E-R owned any land during the entire 3,000 years in question just as the American Indians NEVER owned any land here. They wouldn't be fighting for their own land and I would be.

Think what you like Radar. I disagree with your point and don't think you're seeing the bigger picture. That's your right, but I'm not going to debate the issue with you any longer because there's no point when you are being so small minded.

Finally we agree on something. We both think the other is small-minded and can't grasp the big picture.

I'm pretty sure everyone here thinks you're small minded and can't grasp reality.

I dunno, radar makes sense more often than UG or tw does... but on this one, I say he's half-way talking out of his ass.

I don't side with either the israelis or the palestinians in general. I think theyre both in the wrong. I think both sides need to reign in their more extreme elements, and I think this fight has been going on so long that it doesnt matter who started it, not that it can impartially be judged who did start it. The israelis should absolutely be treating the palestinians better, but... the palestinians should absolutely be treating the israelis better. The palestinians should absolutely not be killing israelis, but... the israelis should absolutely not be killing palestinians.

Theyre both absolutely in the wrong, and will both continue to absolutely be wrong until the cycle of violence is broken, by one side or by both.

Of course they're all being shit heads. Neither side's leadership has shown much reasonability. It's the prisoner's dilemma, neither side believes the other will work with them. The reason I think Israel has more of a claim of responsibility is that they have the CAPABILITY of significantly changing the situation of the area. They have a potent military and fair resources to bring to bear.

If the palestinians somehow convinced everyone to become peaceful, it would take decades for any noticeable change to come about. If Israel stopped the insanity and then, I dunno, worked on building up a west bank/gaza infrastructure and economy, the change would start in a matter of A decade.

The long and short of it is, 99.9% of people everywhere just want to live their life in peace, eat dinner with their friends and family, and have some cool parties/weddings/births. If these simple desires are taken care of, it's amazing how little extremism will take root.

Because one country gives another country something that never belonged to them to give away does not support the notion that the action was legitimate or right. You point holds no water, or sand, whatever the case may be.

Well said Merc.

You are neglecting the indisputable fact that it DID belong to them because it was won in battle. The UK owned the land. Before that the Turks owned it, Before that the Roman's owned it, etc.

This is how border disputes and land ownership have always been decided throughout history.

The UK were the rightful owners of land and they gave it to create a few different countries. People that previously lived on that land (whether it was for a day or a thousand years) had no legitimate claim of ownership.

Merely living on land does not make it yours and the number of years you have lived on it doesn't change this.

Ibram, I don't like what Israel has been forced to do to defend themselves and neither do they. What is the proper response in your mind for those who don't believe you have a right to exist in the first place, have stated their desire to murder everyone in your country and drive them into the sea and to erase your country from the map? What is the proper response for those who blow up women and children in crowded shopping malls, bus stops, etc.? What is the proper response against people who blow you up during peace talks or murder your Olympic athletes?

Okay. I'll buy that as a hypothetical. At what point is it no longer acceptable to attempt to win land by battle?