The Cellar - The New Bailout

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- - The New Bailout (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=19517)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redux (Post 563319)

It is not at all about people who disagree with me.

I learn from undertoad and lookout....I even learn from UG.....because they post and discuss their own opinions.

It is a matter of style.

As I said, it has just gotten tiresome for me to respond to one after another after another of the partisan editorials that cherry pick the facts (in this latest case, two sentences out of two hours of testimony) that you and classic throw out repeatedly with a "gotcha" attitude as a basis for discussion....w/o even offering your own opinions.

I can read partisan editorials (on both sides) w/o coming here.

I'm done.

So be it. Your choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redux (Post 563319)

As I said, it has just gotten tiresome for me to respond to one after another after another of the partisan editorials that cherry pick the facts (in this latest case, two sentences out of two hours of testimony) that you and classic throw out repeatedly with a "gotcha" attitude as a basis for discussion....w/o even offering your own opinions.

Which is why wacko extremism works. Anybody can cherry pick a sound byte. Rush Limbaugh does it routinely AND teaches extremists how to do it. Reality requires much more work; takes longer to explain.

But then Hitler was an early master. Disparage the bourgeois and intelligencia. Once done, it becomes easy to prove Saddam has WMDs.

They continued doing it to you because that is what wacko extremist do. If even a moderate conservative, then he must be a flaming liberal. That soundbyte cheapshot proved itself.

Easy to post lies and half truths especially when others do not hold them to the required 1500 words of supporting facts, numbers, and reality.

classicman is particular good at subverting discussions with his soundbyte attacks masking as a question. Some call it 'stir the pot'. It really was, for example, outright attacks on Jill because she posted what the overwhelming majority of professionals have always said - with supporting facts and example. She posted what a political agenda fears.

Examples of cheapshots demonstrated by classicman's nefarious soundbyte attacks on Jill in Torture memos.

Notice: soundbyte attacks prove that professionals advocate torture. That is the wacko extremist propaganda; despite reality. Professional interrogators routinely show torture does not work. But to explain truth requires 1500 words in response to each cheapshot attack. What classicman does is also how the Nazis grabbed power in 1930s Germany. And so they have successfully driven you silent? Same extremist agenda was used even in 1930s Germany.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 563408)

classicman is particular good at subverting discussions with his soundbyte attacks masking as a question.

More attacks against a poster - something tw claims incorrectly that he never does and routinely ridicules others about - further examples of what a hypocrite tw is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw (Post 563408)

It really was, for example, outright attacks on Jill
Examples of cheapshots demonstrated by classicman's nefarious soundbyte attacks on Jill in Torture memos.

ORLY? Your example above is a question repeatedly asked of Redux, not Jill. Care to try again tw or would you prefer to admit that you are wrong again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman (Post 563373)

There was no reason to read anymore, even though I did. If you understand what the issue is then there is no issue. :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 549801)

I understand all of that. But really, shouldn't they have to eat that? After all, they all went along with the ride. They made the loans to those people. They knew (or should have known) what they were doing. When you take risks, the upside is profit, the downside is the opposite. Still, the houses are worth something, even if the mortgage was a bad one. They are probably worth now what they should've been worth to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I don't want to do the math. I understand the math. Do you understand my argument, or question rather?

Honestly, if banks had just renegotiated those mortgages to begin with, this may not have happened. Really.

And... whoever heard of an appraisal person asking the seller what price they would like their house appraised at? There was all kinds of trickses going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop
Do you understand my argument, or question rather?

No, apparently not. Whats the question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

Those are direct quotes from him - His first priority is a website - and as an afterthought and by his own admission the second is the other which seems much more important to any relatively intelligent human.

Look really closely at what is quoted, and what is provided by the editorial's author.

Quote:

Mr. Devaney, though, said his board - made up of 10 IGs - has a dual mission:
"First, the board is responsible for establishing and maintaining a Web site." Oh, and second, it's supposed to "help minimize fraud, waste or mismanagement."

The "Oh, and second" bit is a sarcastic snipe by the editoral author. For all we know, Mr. Devaney said, "First, the board is responsible for establishing and maintaining a Web site. Once that is completed, we will have the tools in place to proceed to step two, which will help minimize fraud, waste, or mismanagement."

Quote:

The Members of the Board and I view the Board as having a dual mission. First, the Board is responsible for establishing and maintaining a website, the purpose of which is not only to foster historic levels of transparency of Recovery Act funds but to do so in a user-friendly manner. Second, the Board will coordinate and conduct oversight of Recovery Act funds to help minimize fraud, waste or mismanagement. I am pleased to tell you that the Board continues to effect its mission of accountability and has recently taken several important steps to achieve its goal of unprecedented transparency of Recovery Act funds.

I stand 1/2 corrected - I still feel that the website should be a distant second.

The website should be first, if that can result in all of the info being available. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

The poorest and needy still lose out.

Quote:

STIMULUS WATCH: Early road aid leaves out neediest
By MATT APUZZO and BRETT J. BLACKLEDGE –

WASHINGTON (AP) — Counties suffering the most from job losses stand to receive the least help from President Barack Obama's plan to spend billions of stimulus dollars on roads and bridges, an Associated Press analysis has found.

Although the intent of the money is to put people back to work, AP's review of more than 5,500 planned transportation projects nationwide reveals that states are planning to spend the stimulus in communities where jobless rates are already lower.

One result among many: Elk County, Pa., isn't receiving any road money despite its 13.8 percent unemployment rate. Yet the military and college community of Riley County, Kan., with its 3.4 percent unemployment, will benefit from about $56 million to build a highway, improve an intersection and restore a historic farmhouse.

Altogether, the government is set to spend 50 percent more per person in areas with the lowest unemployment than it will in communities with the highest.

The AP reviewed $18.9 billion in projects, the most complete picture available of where states plan to spend the first wave of highway money. The projects account for about half of the $38 billion set aside for states and local governments to spend on roads, bridges and infrastructure in the stimulus plan.

The very promise that Obama made, to spend money quickly and create jobs, is locking out many struggling communities needing those jobs.

The money goes to projects ready to start. But many struggling communities don't have projects waiting on a shelf. They couldn't afford the millions of dollars for preparation and plans that often is required.

"It's not fair," said Martin Schuller, the borough manager in the Elk County seat of Ridgway, who commiserates about the inequity in highway aid with colleagues in nearby towns. "It's a joke because we're not going to get it, because we don't have any projects ready to go."

The early trend seen in the AP analysis runs counter to expectations raised by Obama, that road and infrastructure money from the historic $787 billion stimulus plan would create jobs in areas most devastated by layoffs and plant closings. Transportation money, he said, would mean paychecks for "folks looking for work" and "folks who want to work."

"That's the core of my plan, putting people to work doing the work that America needs done," Obama said in a Feb. 11 speech promoting transportation spending as a way to expand employment.

Also, Congress required states to use some of the highway money for projects in economically distressed areas, but didn't impose sanctions if they didn't. States can lose money, however, if they don't spend fast enough.

The AP examined the earliest projects announced nationwide, the ones most likely to break ground and create jobs first. More projects are continually being announced, and some areas that received little or no help so far may benefit later. The Obama administration could also encourage states to change their plans.

To determine whether there was a disparity in where the money would go, the AP divided the nation's counties into four groups by unemployment levels. The analysis found that, no matter how the early money is measured, communities suffering most fare the worst:

_High-unemployment counties, those in the top quarter of jobless rates, are allotted about 16 percent of the money, compared with about 20 percent for areas least affected by joblessness.

_In low-unemployment counties nationwide, those in the bottom quarter of jobless rates, the federal government is spending about $89 a person compared with $59 a person in the worst-hit areas.

_In counties with the largest populations, the government is spending about $69 a person in areas with the lowest unemployment and $40 a person in places with the greatest job need.

The analysis also found that counties with the highest unemployment are most likely to have been passed over completely in the early spending.

Continues:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Iwh1wD983T6D00

Holy crap. My great great great grand kids will be paying this off.

White House: Budget deficit to top $1.8 trillion, 4 times 2008's record

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/White-...9183.html?.v=8

Only if you use today's dollars :eyebrow:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 564803)

Holy crap. My great great great grand kids will be paying this off.

Where were you when George Jr was creating these problems? Where were you when the 'Saddam has WMD' myths were being promoted using lies and wild speculation?

Deja Vue Nam. Those Nixon lies in 1968 and 1970 caused massive expenses and the resulting recession in the late 1970s.

Discussed previously were Kennedy tax cuts as proof that tax cuts cure economic problems. Then one who constantly first needs facts noted the Kennedy tax cuts then resulted in economic downturn many years later.

Deja vue. George Jr's welfare to the rich and corporate tax cuts. Time to pay for money games as economics now takes revenge.

Again, who kept posting these warnings more than four years ago?

Let's see. Mission Accomplished would only cost $2billion and be paid for by Iraqi oil. What was reality back then? Which kind of thinker saw a $400billion number? On 22 Mar 2004:
France did something right for once!
Due to further extremist mismanagement ("America does not do nation building"), even that number was too small. Mission Accomplished alone is $1trillion (and still bin Laden runs free).

Or from the Economist of 22 Jun 2002:
Government Debts grow
Economic distress created by George Jr's political agenda was obvious how long ago?

Those were the days you stood up for America - opposed the political agenda. Saw through extremist's myths. Economics is now taking revenge for economics stimulus created by money games. Welcome to the 'Deja Vue' lessons of Nam. So many ignored them to promote a political agenda - and the resulting debts. We knew this problem was looming how long ago?
22 Jun 2002?
22 Mar 2004?

Now we must refight an Afghanistan war all over again - because extremists said, "Americans don't do nation building". More debts directly traceable to presidental mismanagement in the early 2000s.

Economists said it. Obama also confirmed it. We will be paying for economic mismanagement for the next ten years. Amazing how a budget surplus by Clinton could turn into massive economic destruction when an MBA trained mental midget, as front man for wackos extremist, was in charge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman (Post 564805)

Only if you use today's dollars :eyebrow:

So what are you saying, today's dollars are worth less? :D

Quote:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The FBI and other U.S. agencies are working to prevent fraud and corruption related to government bailout money and the economic stimulus package, in what could be the "next wave" of cases in the financial crisis, FBI Director Robert Mueller said on Tuesday.

Mueller said in a speech to the Economic Club of New York that the FBI, U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and the inspector general of the Troubled Asset Relief Program were working to track where federal money is going.

"With billions of dollars at stake -- from the purchase of troubled assets to improvements in infrastructure, healthcare, energy and education -- even a small percentage of fraud would result in substantial taxpayer losses," Mueller said.

Mueller added: "We and our counterparts in other agencies are working to prevent what has the potential to be the next wave of cases: fraud and corruption related to the TARP funds and the stimulus package."

He also said the agency was shifting resources in New York to combat white-collar crime.

Mueller told the luncheon gathering that the agency had 1,300 securities fraud cases, including many Ponzi schemes. The FBI was investigating more than 580 corporate fraud cases, he said.

This should keep them busy for awhile.

http://cellar.org/2009/stimulus-vs-u...yment-may2.gif

Ain't working yet :( and neither am I :thepain: