Okay, I am such the third wheel here. tw, take my whip...please.

A throbbing penis? Well it is Halloween.

My mistake. TheMercenary does not have a vain boner in his body.

We claim to be a civilized society. To use torture for any purpose is to give up that civilization and become as barbaric as our adversaries. The entire Bill of Rights is being challenged now all on the grounds that circumstances allow the government to make new rules. No, the end doesn't justify the means. No, might doesn't make right. Just say no to what the Administration is doing.

Too many people here aren't interested in humanity's cause, which is democracy's cause, which is America's cause -- this is not open to rational dispute, after all -- winning.

Shame on all these people.

That's your opinion UG.

How would you know about my boner?

Which is why we continually pull out and never finish these messes we start. We can only win quickly by conducting the war to win. All war is barbaric. You must take the fight to the enemy in a manner he understands, if barbarism is the method, so be it.

Do you think we would have a better chance of winning this war if we beheaded the enemy and published videos of it? We could chain them to vehicles and drag them through the streets to make a point, just like they have been known to do. Would you support the military stooping to their level, kidnapping their families, and torturing them on television while demanding their surrender?

Why doesn't our military do these things if they are the methods required to win?

1) Yes. But I think if it were done in a clandestine manner it would be very effective.

2) I think you already know the answer to it.

Actually, I don't. What do you think it is?

Its because we need popular support and are expected to act justified and they don't. It would be like comparing a community known buisness owner who is in debt and a homeless man with no family in debt. The business man will not go to the extremes as the homeless man because he has much more to lose if caught while the homeless man probably doesn't have much if anything to lose, making him much more likely to go to dangerous extremes for the money.

If the United States starts torturing innocent people (*stands in front of Gitmo*) and we are found out, our support will plummet and people will very quickly turn against us while no one supports Al Qaeda so it doesn't matter what they do, everyone will still hate them.

Because the idea is not to become what we are fighting.
At least for those of us with ethics.
Also, at that point we have no right to complain about what they are doing to others in any way.

If the goal in all of this is to "win the war on terror" (essentially a war on a mindset, a fight against an idea), wouldn't it stand to reason that we would want to appear in a light that would sway those on the middle ground to support our goals, to change their minds and move them away from extremist groups? Would we really be able to do this if populations in the countries we occupy/have bases/have conflicts in knew we were beating people for information? While "win any way possible" logic says they should, since everyone but the enemy would obviously want us to win the war by any means possible to alleviate their suffering, I really don't think "Torturing in Support of Democracy" has a ring to it that will instill pride and gain the support of people in middle eastern nations. Knowing a knock could come at your door and you might be swept off to some camp and waterboarded for months while your family thinks you're dead thanks to misinformation is not going to be well received. Those actions are associated with oppressive, feared dictators, not democratic peace keepers.

...and torture will not remain secret if used, just as it has not in this war so far, nor in any other war. The worst atrocities committed against human beings, the war crimes the US stands against and actively wants to stop, have always managed to come to light at some point. Want to keep it all a secret? Kill your captors, including the innocent ones that didn't have the information you were looking for.

If the reason to torture is to support the war, to end it faster, and that the ends justify the means, then we really need to think ahead to what the supposed final goal of this set of conflicts is: to end terrorism and support democracy. If we're going to use force to do this, then we need to do it right. Just as our military has evolved to fight these new battles against people that are not members of any army, it absolutely must evolve further to look to the long term consequences of its actions, how those actions are received by the people they effect, and what the response will be.

You can torture for information you think might save a life, but no one should be surprised when the ranks of terrorists/anti-US groups swell when the news spreads that the coming liberators will beat to within an inch of your life to get at information if they think you have it.

Ali, just why do you suppose I might have it, hmm? :eyebrow:

I'm not hearing enough enthusiasm for breaking the undemocrats, wiping away their legacy of oppression. As you know, it's dishonest to say I'm talking about Republican Party members.

This was the spirit and tone of rhetoric also used by Hitler to subvert the German government. Hitler also insisted that he and his party were the only true patriotic Germans. If he was not posting a political agenda, then UG would have called them Democrats - not undemocrats. Honesty becomes a victim when political agendas are more important.