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monster 09-09-2009 09:33 PM

Why?

TheMercenary 09-09-2009 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster (Post 593714)
Why?

One is a volunteer.

piercehawkeye45 09-09-2009 10:15 PM

They are dying for a cause and they know what they are getting into.

monster 09-09-2009 10:50 PM

So the executed innocents...... are they not dying for a cause?

And did they not volunteer by living and voting/not voting in a state with CP? ANd even if they're anti CP and protest violently about it, what were they doing that made them a suspect? isn't doing something dodgy in a state with the DP akin to volunteering?

Flint 09-10-2009 10:32 AM

I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.

As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person."

If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so.

TheMercenary 09-10-2009 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 593813)
I know that the following isn't a difficult idea to understand. Once again:

If 1) you know that the system isn't perfect (i.e. that the possibility of the execution of an innocent person exists), and 2) you choose to support the practical reality of that system, then 3) it must, logically, be acceptable to you that an innocent person could be executed. This is clear, stark logic.

As regards the formulation of your own, personal position, this isn't a moral dilemma for "society" at large, it clearly is a moral dilemma you must face within yourself. The honest, adult response would be to state "I am okay with the possibility of the execution of an innocent person."

If you feel strongly that this is the right position, you shouldn't be ashamed to just say so.

It is completely a moral delimma for society at large and the legal system. I don't execute people. They do it within the framework of the legal system. I am not ok with the execution of an innocent person. But I still support the idea of Capital Punishment as a useful tool to punish those rightfully convicted.

Flint 09-10-2009 10:52 AM

If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent.

This is a dilemma which only you can decide for yourself: facing facts, weighing pros versus cons, and forming a position.

TheMercenary 09-10-2009 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 593823)
If you support capital punishment in an imperfect system then you are okay with the possible execution of an innocent.

That is not what I said. You said that.

There are numerous moral questions like this in life. This one is no different. It is not black and white it is gray.

I accept that it happens. I don't accept that it is ok.

Flint 09-10-2009 10:59 AM

When you state two contradictory positions as if they can work together, this indicates that a problem exists in your logic.

2 + 2 = 4. If your position requires it to be 3 in one instance and 5 in another, the logical contradiction indicates a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMercenary (Post 593824)
That is not what I said. You said that.

That's right. My problem is the glaring disparity between the statements you are making and their logical consequences.

You support capital punishment + Capital punishment means an innocent could be executed = You are okay with that.

Quote:

I accept that it happens. I don't accept that it is ok.
Your support of capital punishment logically means that any possible death of an innocent that "happens" is "ok."

TheMercenary 09-10-2009 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 593826)
When you state two contradictory positions as if they can work together, this indicates that a problem exists in your logic.

2 + 2 = 4. If your position requires it to be 3 in one instance and 5 in another, the logical contradiction indicates a problem.



That's right. My problem is the glaring disparity between the statements you are making and their logical consequences.

You support capital punishment + Capital punishment means an innocent could be executed = You are okay with that.



Your support of capital punishment logically means that any possible death of an innocent that "happens" is "ok."

Do you support the killing of innocent people in Afganistan by US troops? Probably not. But I bet you would support the troops and understand that they have to do a job and sometimes innocent people get killed, as bad as it may be. It is not a black and white 2+2 situation. It is not a simple logic equation question.

TheMercenary 09-10-2009 11:18 AM

It is the very fact that it is not a black and white logic equation which makes it a moral dilemma for society and the legal system, which eventually is responsible for prosecuting and sentencing these people to death.

DanaC 09-10-2009 11:19 AM

The question isnt whether you support an innocent person being killed. The question is are you prepared to accept the execution of innocents, which is the somewhat inevitable consequence of having capital punishment. Given that no system is infallible, you either support capital punishment and accept the reality of innocent people being executed. Or, you don't accept the execution of innocent people in which case you cannot support capital punishment. You cannot support capital punishment without accepting that innocent people will be executed.

Lookout at least has the strength of his convictions (if you'll pardon the pun).

It is not just a moral dilemma for society. It is a moral dilemma for you, as a member of that society and for you as a voting citizen.

Flint 09-10-2009 11:19 AM

When facing a decision you evaluate all possible aspects and weigh them against each other to form your postition. This can be a tough choice, but one of the things you cannot do, in reality, is simply ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable. If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position.

TheMercenary 09-10-2009 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 593834)
Given that no system is infallible, you either support capital punishment and accept the reality of innocent people being executed.

I have stated that I understand it happens but I am not "ok" with it as that is how the question was poised to me. And whether you like it or not it remains a moral question for society and our legal system because there is evidence to suggest that innocent people may have been put to death wrongly and yet we still have Capital Punishment.

TheMercenary 09-10-2009 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 593835)
If a less desirable aspect falls on the side of the position you support, you cannot disown it. As an honest person, you cannot repeatedly deny that it exists when asked to account for your position.

I have disowned nothing. I have not denied that it happens. I have accounted for my position completely.


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