The Cellar - Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

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- - Let's talk about Israel and Palestine... (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=30292)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Sarge (Post 908140)

As far as converting them to Christian as was mentioned in a recent joke, the Islamization of Gaza has put increasing pressure on the tiny Christian minority. Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, a rival group to Hamas, announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. "I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza." Sheik Saqer has asserted that there is "no need" for Christians in Gaza to maintain Christian institutions and demanded that Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."

In October 2007, Rami Khader Ayyad, owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore, was abducted, beaten and murdered, after his bookstore was firebombed by an unidentified group attacking targets associated with Western influence. According to Ayyad's family and neighbors, he had regularly received anonymous death threats from people angered by his missionary work.

No one on this board ever comments on the suffering of Christians in the Middle East. It's the dirty little secret that no one acknowledges, because it's fashionable to ascribe the sins of European Roman Catholics who lived centuries ago to people today who have never been Catholic, but who have continued in a faith handed down to them for two millennia.

Christian populations predate Muslims in all of the Middle East and North Africa. Of course they do. And, while Christianity spread peacefully in the first few centuries CE, Islam, as it came into being in the 6th century, spread in the way it does today - through violence, enslavement, and genocide. The Christians of the Middle East are the forgotten minority; they are all Orthodox (or a variant); and they deserve more notice, and concern, from the West.

Big Sarge is the first person who has mentioned anything about Arab Christians. If anyone is interested, investigate what has become of the former Christian populations in Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries.
They have been decimated, driven out, and exterminated.

I spent a great deal of time with Muslim residents in WV during the past two years. They were diverse in opinion and level of devotion, as any group would be who held a common religion but had come from different backgrounds. It was a learning opportunity that I appreciated.

Dana, I've not encountered nor read about any Christian group that practiced/practices FGM. Can you provide a reference? If such a thing has ever been documented, it would be such an anomaly, such an outlier, that it should be noted as such. That is not the case in the many Muslim populations that practice FGM. Even if it predated the adoption of Islam by those populations, even if that could actually be confirmed, it was retained as compatible with Islamic mores and practice. That can't be said for Christian communities in general, in the Middle East and Asia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthodoc (Post 908271)

snip--

I spent a great deal of time with Muslim residents in WV during the past two years. They were diverse in opinion and level of devotion, as any group would be who held a common religion but had come from different backgrounds. It was a learning opportunity that I appreciated.

--snip

ortho, did any of the Muslim residents you got a chance to learn about first hand display or betray anything like the "love of death" described above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV (Post 908275)

ortho, did any of the Muslim residents you got a chance to learn about first hand display or betray anything like the "love of death" described above?

Yes, one of the two who were originally from Saudi did. He also argued for beheadings and the cutting off of hands as appropriate punishments. The other resident from Saudi blamed 'the culture' for things like child marriage/rape and women having no recourse against domestic violence, but never spoke against the regime or Sharia law, which he supported.

Quote:

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is a practice involving the removal of all or parts of the female external genitalia. It has been documented in 28 African countries and in some countries in Asia and the Middle East, but due to increasing immigration from these countries to the western world, FGM has become a worldwide human rights and health issue. Contrary to the belief that it is a practice carried out by Muslims only, it is also practiced by Christians and a minority group of Ethiopian Jews. However, FGM is neither mentioned in the Torah, nor in the Gospels, and – like in Islam – bodily mutilation is condemned by both religions. In fact, FGM is a mix of mainly cultural and social factors which may put tremendous pressure on the members of the society in question.

Quote:

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), female genital mutilation (FGM), also referred to as “female circumcision” or “female cutting”, “comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons” [1]. The WHO estimates that about 140 million girls and women worldwide are living with the consequences of FGM and that every year in Africa alone, about 3 million girls are at risk for genital mutilation [1]. FGM has been documented in 28 African countries and in some countries in Asia and the Middle East

Given the fact that some Sunni Muslims legitimate FGM by quoting a controversial hadith (a saying attributed to the Prophet Mohammed) in which the Prophet allegedly did not object to FGM provided cutting was not too severe [5] and [6] and that the least invasive type of FGM (partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce) is also called “Sunna Circumcision” [7], FGM is widely considered to be associated with Islam. However, during a conference held in Cairo/Egypt in 2006, Muslim scholars from various nations declared FGM to be un-islamic [8] and [9] and, in fact, the traditional cultural practice of FGM predates both Islam and Christianity. Herodotus wrote about FGM being practiced in Egypt as early as 500 BC [3], while the Greek geographer Strabo who visited Egypt in about 25 BC reported that one of the Egyptian customs was “to circumcise the males and excise the females” [10]. According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, FGM is actually practiced by Muslim, Christian and Jewish groups. There are countries, such as Nigeria, Tanzania and Niger, where the prevalence of FGM is even greater among Christian groups [11]. In Egypt, FGM is also practiced on Coptic girls [12], while in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel or Falashas, a Jewish minority, subject their girls to genital mutilation [5].

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...10570413000258

FGM does predate Islam. And it is not accepted as Islamic by all muslims. It is given cover by some because of a line in the Hadith- but is is not a muslim problem. It os much wider than that.

The appalling situation of the Christian populations in the middle east is somethig that is very worthy of discussion. I totally agree. And whilst there may not be a thread for it on here I can assure you it is a hot topic of conversation in UK news. But - what is happening to Christians does not negate or justify what is happening in Palestine.

The Jewish-Palestine situation is not about religion, though religion plays a part - it is about land and territory, politics and self-determination. It is not a continuation of Al-Quaeda and ISIS, it is not the crazy violent muslim extremists trying to create a kaliphate - it is a conflict between two peoples who both have claims on a patch of land. It is an ongoing and very specific political conflict.

The state of Islam in the world, the way women are treated, the way Christians are treated, and the spread of Islamic terrorism are interesting and deserving of their own concern but they are a sidestep in this conversation and a fairly common one whenever the problem of Palestine comes up. They are a way of muddying the waters and denying the absolute specificity of this particular conflict.

Quote:

The Jewish-Palestine situation is not about religion, though religion plays a part - it is about land and territory, politics and self-determination. It is not a continuation of Al-Quaeda and ISIS, it is not the crazy violent muslim extremists trying to create a kaliphate - it is a conflict between two peoples who both have claims on a patch of land. It is an ongoing and very specific political conflict.

Hamas Charter

Excellent post UT. It shows they call for the destruction of Israel, but cry foul when it involves their children who are being used as shields.

A forceful interview on 25 Aug 2014 by BBC's HardTalk Stephen Sackur grills Israel's intelligence Minister Yuval Steinitz who calls the Gaza conflict "brought only misery and suffering on both sides". Without a strategic accomplishment by the Israeli government? No, although it was a heavy price costing 70 Israeli lives (while killing over 2100 Palestinians). Israel's government "seriously considered" a full military reoccupation of Gaza. If Hamas continues rocket firing, Israel's only alternative is a Gaza invasion and occupation.

So what has this latest truce accomplished? Israel will now end a seven year embargo on aid and on building materials. Expand Gaza's fishing area. Consider opening Gaza's only airport. Permit an ocean shipping port for Gaza. Open the Egyptian Gaza border. In short, Hama's rockets may have accomplished everything intended resulting in new respect for Hamas. A major setback for Israel especially when Israel gets nothing by making Hamas more popular among Palestinians.

Mark Regev, an Israeli government spokesman, claims victory because 30 some Terrorist Tunnels were destroyed and Hamas has promised to stop digging such tunnels.

Although Steinitz does concede some new information (ie a Gaza invasion), what makes this interview most interesting are facts from Sackur that Steinitz sidesteps. For example, the American Israel relationship has been declared disfunctional. Many in Likud openly advocated a complete massacre of all in Gaza is justified if it protect only one hair on an Israeli's head. Israel intentionally targeted Gaza civilians and infastructure necessary to support civilian life.

Unfortunately, this contentious interview can only be played on BBC's iPlayer only when hardware is in the UK.

Just in case anybody is in any doubt that the problem between Israel and Palestine is about land and territory:

Quote:

The United States has criticised Israel’s announcement of a land appropriation for possible settlement construction in the occupied West Bank as “counterproductive” to peace efforts, and urged the Israeli government to reverse the decision.

Israel laid claim to nearly 1,000 acres (400 hectares) in the Etzion settlement bloc near Bethlehem, a move which an anti-settlement group termed the biggest appropriation in 30 years and a Palestinian official said would cause only more friction after the Gaza war.

“We have long made clear our opposition to continued settlement activity,” a State Department official said. “This announcement, like every other settlement announcement Israel makes, planning step they approve and construction tender they issue is counterproductive to Israel’s stated goal of a negotiated two-state solution with the Palestinians.”

“We urge the government of Israel to reverse this decision,” the official said in Washington.

Israel Radio said the step was taken in response to the kidnapping and killing of three Jewish teenagers by Hamas militants in the area in June, one of the sparks for the seven-week war in Gaza that left more than 2,000 people dead.

The notice published on Sunday by the Israeli military gave no reason for the land appropriation decision.

Peace Now, which opposes Israeli settlement activities in the West Bank, said the appropriation was meant to turn a site where 10 families now live adjacent to a Jewish seminary into a permanent settlement.

Construction of a major settlement at the location, known as Gevaot, has been mooted by Israel since 2000. Last year the government invited bids for the building of 1,000 housing units at the site.

A local Palestinian mayor said Palestinians owned the tracts and harvested olive trees on them.

More here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nd-settlements

Gaza can end its war in one single Sicilian Vespers, I should think. Directed against all of Hamas as the source and fount of all its miseries. Getting shot at by Israelis amounts to a secondary effect of letting Hamas live.

Why can't the Jews and Arabs fight like good Christians?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla (Post 908818)

Seems to me, that was said of the PLO, albeit less colorfully.

from your link, Dana.

Quote:

Israel has said construction at Gevaot would not constitute the establishment of a new settlement because the site is officially designated a neighbourhood of an existing one, Alon Shvut, several kilometres down the road.

"It's not a gang, it's a club, man." Not a new settlement. Riiiiiight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Ghost (Post 908819)

Why can't the Jews and Arabs fight like good Christians?

Jews learned from Christians. When it a ring, it is better to be the lion.