11/22: pro-life license plate

I don't have any Thanksgiving-specific images, so I just have to pick the most provocative one I have in the pile right now, and that's this one. Yesterday a county-level judge in Florida threw out a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of this license plate design. Discuss amongst yourselves.

free speech right?

i still don't have a conclusive opinion on the topic... both sides have great arguments. i'd love to see some statistics on adoption waiting list times and such though! my mother is a rather strong pro-lifer based on two items: responsibility/accountability for your actions, and the high demand for kids from parents that can't have some of their own. in this day and age of high tech birth control being readily available, one has to admit that in a lot of cases an unwanted pregnancy is just irresponsible... but then again i personally feel the planet doesn't need any more human beings and in some ways keeping them off the playing field saves thousands of lives [smaller ones, perhaps... non-human, without a doubt..].. . . still - someone makes a mistake - should they not pay the consequences? 4 or 5 months of being bloated and sick is perhaps a healthy reminder that the reproductive act isn't just pure fun - there are biological strings attached if you're messing around immaturely. cause & effect.

it would be a tough sort of item to legislate though... very few things seem reasonable, although i would feel that any woman whose age falls under the voting age should have all options available. a full-term pregnancy is a heavy lesson to pay when a scare is probably enough to right improper and irresponsible behavior.

but back to the license plate - whats so bad about it? people should be able to display whatever ideology they wish to as long as it isn't bloody stupid [and that's for the courts to decide, as they say].

anyhow, just some thoughts... as i said, i really don't have a concrete stance on the topic... but i do feel that women should be accountable with such a heavy matter.

Ok this is weird. First of all I would like to know if this is what the plate actually looks like or if it is just a mock up done by the party responsible for the Florida bill getting passed. I assume it is real. The fake license number reads like this to me: (what's the issue?) Abortion, I'm 4 it. Obviously they mean: Choose life, I am for it.

I have major issues with this plate, but I can't think of a legal problem with it. The plate and it's design should be protected by free speech. The people choose to pay extra to get this plate and have their money put to use by the state. I guess besides being an issues loaded design, I don't like the idea of the government printing other peoples speech. Seems to me like someone else should print the plates and dole out the money. It is almost state sponsered propaganda.

If it was up to me each state sould have just one design (except for vets, disabled people, trucks, trailers, gvmt vehicles, higher education vehicles, diplomats, and dealers) and you could have whatever number on your plate if you so choose at no extra cost. I would get FUCK YOU, just to be contrary and obnoxious. Here in Colorado there are like 20 designs that are standard and my friend tells me it is no better in Arizona. You want variety? Bah I say!

I think most of us agree that this falls under free speech. If you disagree then say so. For the rest of us let's just drop the obligatory "They have a right to say this" section and get to the issue we're going to argue about shall we?

I think the plate's an ad, not a real plate. Like the one's for sport's team's. Which would make it more important because it could be on alot of cars not just one.

Oops, gotta go I'll post again later.

i don't see anything wrong with it.
Even if the idea makes me sick.

Even though I tend toward being a pro-lifer (though I can usually see both sides of the issue), I have a problem with the state promoting controversial issues on license plates.

IOW, if they have a "pro-life" licence plate, they should have to have a "pro-choice" license plate. Especially since "pro-life" is not the law.

This used to be the rule, if you recall, for the media, "equal time" for controversial issues. And, although, that has been removed, I still think that the government itself should have a similar kind of requirement.

I have a problem with licence plates.

"Choose reason"

pic of xtian cross in a crossed out circle


Oh wait.. 'equal time' is only on paper...

     Ya know, this may seem a little cold but...

argh i reallyreallyreally don't want to get started on this one - its one of my big hangups, mostly because of person experience..
First thing that came to mindwas thatit seems 90% of the pro-lifers are christian, male or both. Religious views of one person shouldn't effect teh lifestyles of other people nad it doesn't have nearly the same effect on guys as it does girls. MOst pro-lifers also seem to be pretty militant, many i've spoken to thought it should apply to RAPE as well - stupid, stupid people are so cuaght in the hwole poor little child thing what about the poor bloody mother, even if its jsut na unwanted pregnancy it can very easily ruin someones life, adoption isn't that easy. Particualry (on both points) if the person happens to be underage.

WOW - this was purely government funded? now that stinks of someone using public money on their own little jhad. You can get similar things in aust- but you have to pay for them, thats fine.

"WOW - this was purely government funded? now that stinks of someone using public money on their own little jhad. You can get similar things in aust- but you have to pay for them, thats fine."

Umm no. I assume like the rest of these schemes its designed to put more money in the coffers by charging extra for a special plate.

From personal observation, I'd say most militant pro-lifers are male but most prolife folks are not militant. Most, like myself, are content to live out our beliefs in our own lives and only get bent out of shape when asked to be accomplices in others' choices. Don't expect me to stand idley by while you abort, execute, or bomb on my dime.

Not to make this even more complicated...

But I just heard a news story on NPR about how a huge percentage of the nations hoax anthrax scares have been reported at reproductive health centers and pro-choice organizational offices. 500 times, the authorities have had to quarentine and test these places, just in the last month.

I would personally like to thank these horrible nutjobs for making their side look like a bunch of lunatics.

That said, it makes me really sad.

mh

your right to swing your fist around stops at my face

Hmmm...are they going to offer a Pro-choice plate? I don't personally see anything wrong with it, and it seems to fall within the 1st Amendment boundaries.

Virginia apparently still has a Confederate Pride plate...I remember a debate over that when I lived in DC.

What bothers me about these license plates isn't even the message. It's the God-awful -designs-. I can't think of a state whose "special cause" license plates don't look as though they were designed by a committee of half-wits whose artistic sensibilities begin and end with the Howard Johnson School of Hotel Decorating. Haven't these people heard of -artists-?

This discussion needs words from a female for balance.

The whole point as for as I am concerned is that no one has the right to make such an important choice for someone else. I don't care what the beliefs are; they should not be inflicted on another person.

It is that simple.

to fuel the fire

The proceeds from the sales of the "Choose Life" plate go towards funding adoption clinics and foster care.

Brian

Disclaimer: If I were President, I would work to help lower the number of abortions. I would not work for legislation to prohibit it, however. So, basically, I like the pro-life ideal, but it doesn't work in the real world, so I'm willing to concede defeat and work for a better solution.

Now. Let's get some facts straight. Abortion, in late-term, is ending life. No, the baby hasn't been born yet. But where do you draw that line? Is it after the baby has passed through the vagina? After the umbilical cord is cut? Is it okay to bring the child out and crush its head while it's still connected to the umbilical cord? Is that okay? Is it okay to cut open the head of a 5-month old fetus and drain its brain from its skull? If it's okay 4 months before it's actually "born", then why isn't it okay 4 months after it's born?

That fetus would grow up to be a human being. Why is it okay to kill it right before it is born but not when it's 20 years old? What's the difference? We all cringed when Iman Hiju, the 4 month old baby, was killed by Israeli shell fire. We'd all find it undeniably tragic if a pregnant woman was run over by a bus while walking her doggie. We would mourn for the woman as well as the unborn child. But if the mother wants to kill it, it's okay?

Problem is, I actually have known girls that used abortion as a birth control method. One didn't like the inconvenience of condoms, so she just went without. She would stay pregnant until she started gaining weight (being pregnant is great birth control!), and then she'd get an abortion and start it all again. Is this okay?

Where do we draw the line? Obviously it's unacceptable for some militant to kill an abortion doctor. Just as it's unacceptable for an abortion doctor to kill a... wait, that's okay, right?

Lot of anti-death penalty people here on the Cellar. Where do you draw the line? Most anti-death penalty persons I know also are pro-choice. Does no one else see the silliness here? Most pro-death penalty people I know are pro-life. Am I the only one that doesn't miss the self-contradiction?

Was it okay for Timothy McVeigh to be put to death? Most people would agree that if anyone deserved it, he did. Well, what makes the executioner any better then? He pushed a button that killed a human being. Should he be put to death as well? Where do we draw that line? If abortion is okay, then why isn't state-sanctioned killing?

Jaguar talks about how he's pro-choice and then bitches and moans about innocents dying in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Afghanistan. He's not alone - a lot of people do this, and I'm not trying to single him out (but he's so fucking PROLIFIC, he's posted his opinion on every day thing under the sun). Well, what about the unborn babies that are killed. What did they ever do? There really are third-trimester abortions. That wasn't just made up. I have seen the pictures. Where do we draw the line? It isn't that black and white.

And after saying all that... I do strongly support after-pregnancy abortive measures in the cases of incest and rape. Maybe that's because my sister is a rape victim (when she was 7, no less). I don't know. But I can't imagine forcing a rape victim to foster a child that was the product of what is probably the worst experience in their life. Asking one to do that is inhuman. That's probably why I, a Republican, supported the Democratic Virginia gubernatorial candidate instead of the Republican - he was fiercely pro-life, even in cases of rape and incest. Well, you can't draw that line there. It isn't that black and white.

So you narrow it down to an issue of when a child is considered...a child
Point of conciousnes, in a few years this will be defineable, problem solved. Only people i've heard saying sperm meeets egg stage are the militant nutters so voila, problem solved.

     Umm, Yeah what Lisa said... Way to go.

     A couple of things though, I'm pro-choice largely because I think my rights/morals should not extend to the body's of others. Just like I keep my mouth shut when I'm at a chinese buffet with someone on our third plate and they start bitching about needing to lose sixty pounds. (it's happened) Personaly I hate abortion, I would not associate with a woman that uses abortion as birth control. I also would not tell her she's a bad person. I think she has the right, I just find it repugnant.

     This is not just a theory to me. When my son's mother became pregnant (the method of birth control simply failed, it happens) she talked about getting an abortion. Everytime it was mentioned my entire chest locked up and I felt cold. When asked my how I felt I told her that I'd rather she not, but it was her choice to make. In the end we broke up and I got custody, by her agreement. Point is I believe it's the woman's choice, even when it is my fetus.

     As for late-term abortions, as Jag said it's rare. When it does happen it is almost never just an arbitrary decision but a medical one. Like something went wrong and the mothers health is in extreme danger. Also there are very few legitimate doctors willing to do them for any other reason.

Pro-Life, and Why

Here's a brief explanation of what and why I believe.

I believe that you cannot hope to define a point in fetal development at which a fetus is "alive", "human", "conscious", what have you. From the moment of conception, the fetus is a living human being with all the rights and privileges of you or I.

Now, I recognize that not everyone shares that belief. That’s terrific. Far be it from me to impose my beliefs on your body. THAT’S NOT WHAT I WISH TO DO! Your body doesn’t enter into the equation! As soon as you accept the fact that the fetus is a human, the rights of the mother to mess about with her body absolutely pale into oblivion relative to the right of the child to live! So many of the whole pro-life/pro-abortion skirmishes become moot when you realize that its not a matter of the mother’s life, its a matter of the child’s life.

Re: rape, incest, etc... I can understand that these assaults are horribly scarring, painful events for a woman. However, aborting the child will not make the memory of the event disappear. For nine months, the mother will have to literally carry around a reminder of a traumatic event. I do not envy this burden. Once again, this is a non question. Would you kill another individual to avoid that burden?

RU-486? Merely a more sanitized form of abortion, but no less despicable. Again,as soon as you accept the life of the fetus, so many other issues become trivial.

I am not a religious individual. I do not participate in anthrax hoaxes, nor do I bomb clinics. I am a white male student. I read, I study, I discuss, I vote. I believe that pregnancy is not just an avoidable nine-month hassle that women are unfortunately shackled with. It is part of our nature that we must realize is the beginning of a living being from the moment that being is conceived.

     Heh, I was wondering how long it would take you to find that guy's post Jag. Now there's two or three more people I expect his approach to have greatly offended. Ah, they'll probably have seen it by the time I check it again tomorrow afternoon.

     Don't be shy, just because Jag or I already said what you were thinking. Reiterate the point. It'll be good clean fun. You know who you are, the very people I was speaking of with the "don't demand they think like you do" remark.

     By the by, that end bit about 'Welcome to the Cellar'. It was sincere. I realize that with the precedeing post that it may have come off as sarcasm. It was not, I wouldn't post just to be hostile. I rather like dissenting opinions. After all, I need them for my point of view to grow. If I came on strong it was more due to the stating of opinions as facts and telling me what I "must realize".

This reminds me of austrlaian and turkish troops trading food inbertween killing each other. I wouldn't have been so.....nasty? if it didn't have personal edge sighs*

Sigh...

I was hoping to stay outta this one, but I've been "dragged" back in. I know, I can ignore it, but I feel compelled to respond on the two points where I was "attacked".

However, this is my last post on this issue. I usually avoid the whole topic of abortion in RL because, as I have said, everyone has their beliefs and mine is that either side is unwinnable.

I find it funny, however, that although I said something along the lines of "I'm slightly pro-choice" (IOW, that's probably how I'd vote if it came to that), someone is trying to make me see that pro-life is just dead wrong and that these pople make no sense.... and I just can't feel that way.

If I saw proof that a 10 cell blathocyst had a "soul" if you will, or a "consciousness" or whatever you wanted to call it, I'd agree that, in most cases, abortion should be illegal.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen such proof. Nor have I seen contractiditory proof. And "common sense" is not a valid argument since both sides (equally reasonably) clain that they are sure they have that...

As an aside, I have not even seen proof that an infant has consciousness. There have been theories that consciousness is developed post-natally, but I think we'd all agree that a two-month old infant should not be killed -- that that would be murder. So, I am not even sure if that would truly settle this, apparently, eternal debate.

Anyhow, on to my last reply on this thread:

Without divulging my own opinion, there is one element I'd like to note...

The zygote, and the fetus that develops from it, are most certainly human. In the abortion debate both sides are trying to win the argument semantically, and I wish this would stop. The cells of the zygote have the right number of chromosomes and human DNA, and that makes it human.

Of course, so are a lot of cells - including many that we remove surgically for any number of reasons.

The debate is not whether it's human, but whether it's a person. Human cells don't have rights; people have rights.

That is all, we now return to your regularly-scheduled debate.

The smoking gun website has some documents of Vanity Plates that are not allowed.

Vanity Plantes

Vanity Plates 2

lisa wrote <i>"As an aside, I have not even seen proof that an infant has consciousness."</i>

If consciousness is the sticking point, it's neocortical brain activity that counts - something that happens around the sixth month.

RU486? Damn rights I am.

Birth control methods fail. Stupidity and rape happen. Pro-choice? You bet. Whether you agree or not, there has been and will always be abortion. There will always be desperate women of all ages not able or willing to be a parent for the first time or the fifth. Keep it open and safe.

Lisa: You have a point, i'm debtating for the point of debating, not much more. I think we've got this down to a metaphysics question of waht is a person/human and from then on, argueing is pointless because there can be no evidence.