Undertoad Saturday Mar 13 01:04 AM
3/13/2004: Madrid terrorism protest
xoxoxoBruce Saturday Mar 13 01:18 AM
My God, think of the damage a couple of suicide bombers or a poison gas cloud could do, to that crowd.
CzinZumerzet Saturday Mar 13 06:29 AM
I imagine they have all thought of that and it didn't stop them turning out.
Griff Saturday Mar 13 07:50 AM
That is an interesting reaction, especially considering how we Americans cowered in our houses after 9-11.
Mundofer Saturday Mar 13 08:50 AM
Just to let you know that this have been the biggest protest ever in Spain. In Madrid (population 4 million) there was an estimation of 2,3 million. And the same in all cities in Spain.
quzah Saturday Mar 13 09:39 AM
Imagine losing a contact...
wolf Saturday Mar 13 09:41 AM
Q, you have proven several times today (this and the lame suicide bomber conversation ... left a nasty stain on the carpet!!) that you are indeed funny.
xoxoxoBruce Saturday Mar 13 10:37 AM
ndetroit Saturday Mar 13 01:59 PM
No, I'm pretty sure the americans didn't cower in their houses.... In fact, if memory serves me correctly, they sent out a good whack of their population half way around the world to try and meet the threat head-on...
Griff Saturday Mar 13 02:05 PM
I could have chosen my words better there, but I don't recall 2.3 million New Yorkers getting together immediately after the mass murder. I recall all our media looking to our political leaders to tell us what to do instead asking us to look into ourselves. I never really thought about 9-11 as a media driven mass culture event before so I'm just thinking out loud here.
ndetroit Saturday Mar 13 07:40 PM
hah, fair enough.. I don't even live in america, but let me tell you: I was cowering plenty...
quzah Saturday Mar 13 08:59 PM
Undertoad Saturday Mar 13 09:32 PM
i see stupid people
quzah Saturday Mar 13 09:38 PM
1) Plane wreckage.
2) Scattered luggage and the like.
Explain why in the very first released photos, the grass is all there, but for some reason, they bulldoze it all away. And again, there is no wreckage at all anywhere. Compare this to the wreckage of any other aircraft you picture you'll ever see. There is no luggage; no bodies were ever recovered from this "crash". Where'd they go?
Elspode Saturday Mar 13 10:07 PM
I'm gonna need to put on my tinfoil hat before I start doing the research on this, though.
Elspode Sunday Mar 14 01:25 AM
I'm sure you've looked around, but this certainly shows some debris. Probably a really convincing job of Photoshopping, though. Big cover up and all.
quzah Sunday Mar 14 01:46 AM
So there was one engine and a landing gear? Where's the rest of the plane? This wasn't supposedly some tiny cesna. It's a fucking jet. Ok, so there's a handful of scrap metal. Where are the bodies? None were ever recovered.
Elspode Sunday Mar 14 01:53 AM
A plane full of fuel flying at 250 mph and crashing into a reinforced concrete building (several walls worth of reinforced concrete, as well as supporting columns) is going to essentially vaporize. A great deal of the resulting shredded aluminum will burn completely in the subsequent fire (I have burned beer cans in campfires before, so I know this can be done). Other sites clearly show a landing gear, wheel, turbofan parts, tire tread, primered metal known to match the aircraft type, etc, etc.
Undertoad Sunday Mar 14 08:41 AM
All this shit was started by a French book that came out in 2002. It was thoroughly debunked. If you start to believe in this kind of thing you should start questionning your sources harder. There is a ton of evidence in one direction and only a few stupid questions in the other. Like spode said, Occam applies here. Everyone is trying to introduce noise into your belief system. Don't help them.
xoxoxoBruce Sunday Mar 14 09:05 AM
The real plane and passengers are hidden in the studio where then filmed the moon landings.
elSicomoro Sunday Mar 14 09:42 AM
I'm going to file this alongside "The Holocaust never happened" and "The moon landing was faked by Hollywood."
Undertoad Sunday Mar 14 11:28 AM
Here's the Snopes page on this item btw.
quzah Sunday Mar 14 12:15 PM
A hell of a lot of people didn't "see" it happen. Those that did seem to have different flight paths for the jet.
The FBI apparently seized every shred of video evidence of the actual crash itself. Compared to the towers, which were replayed over and over and over.
Why should you doubt this was another plane? That's a great sentence. I'll leave it at th[^***#$
***FILE PURGE ACTIVATED
Elspode Sunday Mar 14 01:46 PM
Well, I know that you and I didn't see it happen...but I'm still going with the least complex theory until someone gives me an explanation of why we would kill our own people and endanger our own military HQ. Wait, let rephrase that. I'll need an explanation from someone who hasn't been off their meds for awhile.
OnyxCougar Sunday Mar 14 01:47 PM
Reports that the WTC did not collapse because of damage caused by the planes, but because Silverstein and FDNY decided to set off the charges that were built into the buildings and "pull them" down before they fell down.
OnyxCougar Sunday Mar 14 03:02 PM
This is a HELL of a page about the Warren Commission's coverup about the Kennedy Assasination.
ndetroit Sunday Mar 14 07:10 PM
I remember watching TV on sept 11, and there were all kinds of reports about a "5th plane" ... and then all of a sudden you just heard NOTHING about it... they didn't even make a retraction, like "Oh, we're getting reports now that the 5th plane we mentioned was fine", or whatever.
OnyxCougar Sunday Mar 14 07:15 PM
I also heard CNN say it was a truck bomb that hit the pentagon. Then they said it was a plane. How do you get truck bomb from a 757?
Elspode Sunday Mar 14 07:24 PM
elSicomoro Sunday Mar 14 07:43 PM
I distinctly remember hearing that one plane was shot down by the Air Force, and that a bomb went off at the State Dept. that morning...I still have a copy of the Philadelphia Inquirer that shows the latter.
funkykule Monday Mar 15 04:42 AM
On the otherhand wake up and smell the coffee. Your roads arent up to scratch probably because your country's government are after spending more on war than any other presidency except for Lyndon Johnson, and wasn't that because he was over the Vietnam war? What do you think the CIA and the FBI spend their days doing?
CharlieG Monday Mar 15 11:25 AM
CharlieG Monday Mar 15 11:36 AM
Yep, there were reposts of a truck bomb on the mall. Eventually, it turned out to be nothing, so the news guys just moved on without saying anything (TOO much going on)
I've talked with the "old timers" here - it was the most confused day they ever saw.
Couple that with the fact that all the major NYC based networks lost their AP wire feed when the first building came down, it caused some crazyness. APs NYC office was in 1 World Financial Center if I remember right, but anyway, either in WTC or across the street in one of the buildings that got pretty well trashed, and ALL the phone lines in that area went through the WTC basement
One of those "funny in the aftermath" stories. The 1st building comes down, and about 5 minutes later, we get a phone call from the news room "The AP NYC feed is down, and we're on DC backup - You have to fix the feed" We just told the caller "APs NY datalines went through the WTC - that feed isn't coming back anytime soon" The caller KNEW that, but had not even stopped to THINK about it
ladysycamore Monday Mar 15 12:14 PM
quzah Monday Mar 15 01:04 PM
Where's the black box?
Kitsune Monday Mar 15 03:09 PM
Both black boxes from the hijacked aircraft which crashed into the Pentagon have also been recovered and turned over to the Federal Aviation Administration.
Beestie Monday Mar 15 03:15 PM
dar512 Monday Mar 15 03:24 PM
dar512 Monday Mar 15 03:27 PM
Then I thought what a true curse it would be if you were bothered by stupid people wanting help all day.
Then I thought, "Dang. That actually describes some people's jobs."
OnyxCougar Tuesday Mar 16 10:59 AM
***raises her hand***
Troubleshooter Tuesday Mar 16 11:13 AM
Double T Tuesday Mar 16 12:33 PM
glatt Tuesday Mar 16 01:00 PM
Yep, parts were blocked off for sure.
mitheral Tuesday Mar 16 02:18 PM
CharlieG Tuesday Mar 16 02:46 PM
I _HATE_ when people forget that NYC is actually made up of 5 counties, and is QUITE large
NY County - aka Manhattan + some small islands, and a couple of blocks on the mainland (a canal was moved - don't ask)
Bronx County - "the Bronx" - the only part of NYC on the mainland - all others are on islands (except for those few blocks)
Richmond County - aka Staten Island - NYCs most rural county
Kings County - aka Brooklyn - This is actually on "Long Island".
Queens County - aka Queens - again, on Long Island
When folks say "NYC", they are usually thinking "Manhattan", which is actually the smallest part of NYC by FAR (smallest county in the USA at 22 square miles)
If your in Manhattan, and someone says, they are going to "Long Island" - they usually mean Nassau or Suffolk, which are the 2 NON NYC counties on LI
If your on Long Island, and your going to Manhattan, your going to "the City" - Brooklyn and Queens are "forgotten"
NYC Government is VERY Manhattan centric - One of the past Mayors coined the term "Outer Boroughs" for the other 4 Boroughs of NYC, nad he would say it with distain
BTW A GREAT web site for NYC stuff
mitheral Tuesday Mar 16 02:52 PM
Uryoces Tuesday Mar 16 03:16 PM
So I would expand the saying to include the following: "Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity or inertia."
Plus you're preaching to the choir if you're telling 'Spode to not trust in the US government.
funkykule Wednesday Mar 17 06:09 AM
Also I don't think you're giving the poeple who run your country(I don't mean Dubya or his cronies) the credit they deserve. They may not be taking the high road at the moment but jeez louise I don't think stupidity or inertia got the US to become a superpower. I hate to say it but someone has to be doing something right over there because you basically control the world's economy!
I think you took my sense of security comment in the wrong context. I didn't mean defense against attack from outside forces, I meant the security in believing that your govt. is working for your benifit without jeopardising the freedom and/or lives of other nations.
Undertoad Wednesday Mar 17 08:15 AM
So if 9/11 was a fluke, what was the 1993 WTC bombing?
blue58 Wednesday Mar 17 08:29 AM
Don't believe too much in the many conspiracy theories, but This thread about people in one of the towers is one of the most fascinating I've read.
OnyxCougar Wednesday Mar 17 10:33 AM
Oh. My. God.
wolf Wednesday Mar 17 10:34 AM
blue58 Wednesday Mar 17 10:48 AM
Just a quick disclaimer, the purpose of that link was to see some fascinating pictures of a close up shot of one of the towers, and the debate about what is there or not there.
OnyxCougar Wednesday Mar 17 10:55 AM
Oh..yeah, I hope I was clear the the jumper pics were not on the forum itself, but link from a link.
wolf Wednesday Mar 17 11:04 AM
I've seen the jumper pics many, many times.
Undertoad Wednesday Mar 17 11:10 AM
No wolf, I mean, were the CIA and FBI playing games when that one happened?
Happy Monkey Wednesday Mar 17 11:19 AM
Not to derail this back to the topic of Spain, but here's an article on why they voted the Popular Party out.
glatt Wednesday Mar 17 12:27 PM
OK, by my count, that's the 3rd country.
Undertoad Wednesday Mar 17 12:54 PM
Germany was in there: Schroeder rode in on anti-US sentiment.
Happy Monkey Wednesday Mar 17 01:28 PM
It's anti-Bush. The sentiment was primarily pro-US in Europe in the timeframe between 9-11 and Bush's Iraq adventure. And even before 9-11, the sentiment was much more pro-US than it is now. And even more so again when Clinton was in office.
Undertoad Wednesday Mar 17 01:41 PM
When would you say it turned, exactly? When the UN passed 1441, or when the first bombs fell?
Happy Monkey Wednesday Mar 17 03:56 PM
I'd say it started turning the second Bush started talking about Iraq, and each subsequent step (pushing the resolutions, badmouthing the inspectors, censoring Iraq's response document before distribution, kicking out the inspectors, lying in the SOTU, starting the Iraq war, setting up the "Coalition of the Willing", Freedom Fries, etc) made it worse, even in the so-called "willing" countries.
Elspode Wednesday Mar 17 04:15 PM
Referring to my perceived Pollyanna attitude toward my government...I don't have one. I just don't think that the bumbling juggernaut that is the US Federal Governement could ever hope to keep such a large conspiracy secret. They aren't that competent.
xoxoxoBruce Wednesday Mar 17 08:13 PM
I'll second that, Els.
Uryoces Thursday Mar 18 03:49 PM
Undertoad Thursday Mar 18 04:17 PM
So (back to HM) what Europe really doesn't like is not that it was or wasn't Iraq, nor that it was or wasn't war, nor that it was or wasn't necessary, but that the US was throwing its weight around basically without check.
Happy Monkey Thursday Mar 18 05:15 PM
I think you're putting words in my keyboard there. I can't figure out how you get that from my post.
Undertoad Thursday Mar 18 06:17 PM
Yeah, basically we're at the same point on that. I wasn't putting words in your mouth so much as extending on it.
tw Friday Mar 19 03:52 PM
Too often, 1) basic intelligence reports are perverted by the agenda of higher ups. A difference from decades previous - 2) analysts once were first field agents. Today, most analysts have never spent any time in the country they are 'experts' on. These two facts routinely distort intelligence reports.
But it is not just in the CIA. Remember, FBI agents in AZ, MN, and IL all were on the tail of 11 Sept terrorists. And all were ordered not to investigate. The IL FBI agents are typical. They would not go public until after they had retired (for obvious reasons). They were told - no, yelled at - "You will not conduct a criminal investigation". That is an exact quote. The IL agents were following 11 Sept money trail until bosses yelled at them to stop.
It gets worse. The current president comes with 'no dirt under his fingernails". Contrast that with Kennedy whose experience said not to trust CIA report (no nuclear weapons in Cuba) and Gen Curtis LeMay (he could take out all missiles on the first strike). Fundamental difference. Intelligence has always been that murky as it is today. Problem is not the intelligence. Problem is that current top manager only knows the world from a six month crash course taught by Condolezza Rice. And then only wants to hear about things that agree with his pre-ordained conclusions.
Read the George Tenant speech again, *carefully*, with this perspective. He is a shrewd politician. He carefully worded that speech so that everyone heard what they wanted to hear. In reality, our intelligence is good and has flaws. Those flaws are normal which is why top management must be tempered with life experience. Today is really no worse than our intelligence has always been. Even the FBI could have stopped 11 Sept attacks if only top management permitted those investigators to do their job. But then how many parts of the FBI must be exposed defective before we go after top management. FBI labs fakes reports. Anti-spy group contained Soviet spies. Agents had to use their own home computers to get or transmit critical information. Agents were not permitted to investigate the 11 Sept attacks until after they happened.
But most scary and what has changed. 1) Top CIA analysts no longer come from the field. 2) Top FBI managers no longer first worked as field agents. And 3) the boss of everyone was busy doing alcohol and drugs when he should have been learning how the world really works.
wolf Friday Apr 2 10:15 PM
I finally got the info we needed here ...
Where was the plane? Right the fuck there.
Why didn't you see it?
The pieces were too tiny.
We are used to seeing media coverage of and photos of plane crashes.
They usually occur on take off, or landing, and often involve some control of the airfoil.
In the case of an explosion (like lockerbie or the plane than went down off long island) the plane is separated into largish chunks. I've had the opportunity to see reconstruction photos from the NTSB ... they take the recovered parts and rebuild the plane to see if they can determine cause.
What differs between this and the 9/11 crashes at the pentagon and at shanksville, is that the planes were travelling at cruising speeds (300-400 mph) or higher.
There just wasn't any plane left to find ...
I spent the last two days with two men who were present at the shenksville site ... that's Flight 93, you know, Todd Beamer, Let's Roll, and all that.
The plane went straight down into the forest. The wings carry most of the fuel. They separated from the fuselage and burned. Aviation fuel burns hot, and aircraft aluminum has a relatively low melting temp. But it didn't burn as much as you might expect. There was only a small burn area in the forest.
And a hole in the ground. The grass was pretty much there too.
The first fire companies on the scene reported "there's nothing here".
These guys have been to plane crashes before. Both of these men were at the crash of USAIR 247, which also occurred near Pittsburgh. When that plane came down, there were no intact bodies ... much of the recovery involved picking bits of people out of trees, or finding nearly unrecognizable bits of people on the ground.
They finally found the plane ... or what was left of it.
50 feet down ... in that hole.
they dug out and sifted all the dirt, looking for body parts, etc.
They found very little.
ALL the parts of the plane that were recovered fit in a dumpster.
The experience at the Pentagon would have been similar.
No, I haven't talked to anyone who was at the Pentagon.
But I saw the pictures taken by a couple EMTs with no agenda from Shanksville.