11/3/2003: Japanese dolphin kill

The official cap:

The sea turns red with the blood of dolphins caught and butchered by fishermen near Taiji, Japan. Japan, to its shame, allows 22,275 of the intelligent marine mammals to be caught during the October-to-April hunt. This photo was taken by the American anti-whaling group Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

Sick.

From the full story, "In the videotape, fishermen pound on the water, causing waves that confuse the animals' sense of direction, then corral the dolphins into small coves, where they can be easily killed."

Sick.

So, uh, who wants to go for a swim?

      Personally I find this revolting. Largely because of watching "Flipper" as a child and all the stories one hears about dolphins saving human lives. Still...

It's not really emotion-based thinking. I think it's the right thing to do to keep animals from suffering as much as possible. Why? Because if we're raising them just to eat 'em, I figure we can at least treat them humanely while they're alive. Wouldn't we want the same for ourselves?

I find it revolting because <b>look at that water!</b> I don't have any problem with eating dolphins per se, although they are more intelligent creatures and therefore probably are more like humans when it comes to being hunted down and killed (i.e., know what's going on and are not happy about it).

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; These dophins aren't being raised to eat though. They're being hunted in the wild. The water is indeed disgusting, and the animals inteligence is part of what I find so disturbing about it. However, you ever hunt deer? It can be a pretty bloody affair as well. Since it's not in the water it's not so... visually disurbing. Also, they're "corraling them into a cove, so all the blood is in a limited space. Makes for a foul image, which is exactly what the person taking the pic wanted.

Nah, I don't hunt deer. I'm aware of how messy it can be, 'cause I've been around it, but I don't feel any particular need to hunt. Those that enjoy it can do so. My problem is that I get out there and I see a carefree animal stomping around in the snow and having a good time, and I don't want to disturb that.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Interestingly enough, that's where I stand on deer hunting too. Alot of my friends and relative's hunt, which I'm cool with, but I don't. I've spent enough time in the woods to have walked close, even dangerously close to deer. They're much more, um... impressive I guess is the word, in the wild. Especially when you're on the ground and unarmed.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've never seen one in the snow though... maybe that's cause I'm hiding in the warmth of a home or building?

There's some question about whether the blood in the water has been photoshopped a bit.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It wouldn't surprise me if it was photoshoped a bit. You would have to know about the turbidity of the water there, as well as what kind of water flow somes in and out of those coves to know for sure. The amount of blood isn't that important anyway. It's just a way to graphically make the number of dolphins hit home.

I would guess that they just turned up the color saturation of that particular red, but not that they did a color conversion, or added new red where it wasn't.

It is to... cry.

People suck.

Quzah.

These people have to be stopped, it's F*#king sick.
And the Japanese wonder why more and more people are loosing respect for them and their tradition/culture. They have stripped the oceans surrounding them and now fish in our waters, illegally. They need to be stopped and stopped for good.

Yes! And... the fine tradition of bukkake needs to be imported here to the US! Along with all their women! Yes!

I like the way Leah thinks!

There is more at http://www.greenpeacefoundation.com/....cfm?campId=13

Note: user discretion advised, there are several graphic photos

I enjoy sushi and rare tuna steaks but this is not for me.

The argument about Americans being told what to eat is irrelevant. The question is what do the activists eat since they're the one telling the Japanese what not to eat. I wouldn't be surprised the activists are strict vegetarians.

Those pictures make me feel absolutely sick in the stomach.
I have never eaten Sushi cause I feel that all meats including fish should be cooked. Plus I know that raw meat such as Kangaroo meat have worms in it. Not that I'd ever eat Kangaroo either.

*giggle* You are so cute!

I think the whole bit about raising dolphins for food is absurd. Native Americans didn't raise buffalo. So what? I'd say hunting them is less offensive to the animal kingdom than raising for food, because at least those in the wild have a chance.

What was your point again, Onyx? One that makes sense this time, please.

Yes.

I still don't see how whether or not they raise the animals is relevant.

OMFG!!

Sato said, "what's wrong with eating dolphins?"

Nothing.

Sato said, "There are Hindus, Muslims around the world who don't eat beef or pork, but do they tell Europeans not to eat this meat"

No. But Europeans raise these animals strictly for the purpose of slaughtering and eating them, so IT'S NOT THE SAME THING, and this is A STUPID FUCKING THING TO BRING UP BY WAY OF COMPARISON.

Apples and Oranges.

The comparison.

That's all. Just a point on the comparison.

Jesus H.

Somehow, some way, I have ceased to be able to express myself through the written word.

The part that scares me is that one of my minors in college is English.

I have never encountered so much frustration trying to express my opinions in written form than I have here.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person with a moderate vocabulary and at least rudimentary grasp of syntax.

How then, am I failing to communicate my thoughts on various issues?

Pretty much what quzah said. It's not "apples and oranges" because one is raised and one isn't. I even stated before that one not being raised strictly for killing is easier to justify to many because at least the animals live a free life until they're killed. And you're getting all smarmy with "Thanks for playing" when you really don't have a point at all. Your comparision is stupid. Whether or not they were raised for food doesn't matter; the fact that they end up dead in the long run is the issue. Most groups fighting this don't want dolphins killed <b>at all</b>. It's not "we don't want wild dolphins being killed". They consider dolphins semi-intelligent creatures that, for more than one reason, should not be killed.

Stop being so fucking smarmy and try to read what others are saying instead of dismissing them outright and going "Thanks for playing". We've tried to read your post, it does <b>not</b> make sense, and I asked you to clarify. You come back with "this is A STUPID FUCKING THING TO BRING UP BY WAY OF COMPARISON" and quzah and I cannot possibly fathom how this is a STUPID FUCKING THING TO BRING UP BY WAY OF COMPARISON - because it's not. At the end of the day, animals got slaughtered and eaten. What's the difference? How does raising the animal make it "more better" to kill? How exactly is his comparison not valid if the end result is that animals die?

Hi everyone, I'm mostly a lurker, forgive me for jumping into such a hot thread. I love you all so whether you agree or disagree, so it's all good.

For the moment, lets forget about the picture of blood bay.

Onyx does have an absolutely valid point in that this is an apples to oranges issue. Here's why.

The quoted statements from Sato in Whit's post contained a logical fallacy. That fallacy was the implied assumption that the japanese killing dolphins and other cultures killing beef are an apple to apple comparison. They are not and I'll explain in a moment. Whit's comment that Sato had a logical point was really more emotional than logical. ;-) And I think that this is what Onyx has been trying to point out.

Western cultures have conditioned themselves to accept the killing of cows for food. The japanese have conditioned themselves to accept the killing of dolphins for food. Apples and Apples. You can substitute any creature you want for cows or dolphins. Cats, dogs, spiders, horses, you name it and there is a culture out there who considers it food. Sato is correct in that it would be wrong for one culture to impose its own standards of what is 'food' on another. In that sense, we're all 'guilty' and it's a thread for another forum whether or not killing animals for food is ethical or 'right' or what have you.

Sato and others are incorrect in stating that killing animals raised in captivity for that purpose and killing wild animals like dolphins are 'equal.' From a social/ethical/moral point of view yes, they are equal. It's killing an animal for food. There is however a major difference. When animals are born, bred, and slaughtered in captivity, you effectively have a closed system. The effects of that system on our ecosystem as a whole are relatively minimal*. The natural population of wild cattle (if such a thing exists) doesn't change no matter how many cattle farms there are. When the japanese kill wild dolphins, to such a degree that we know their global populations are dwindling, they are harming the entire ocean system and the ecosystems that depend on it by upseting the stability of populations that have evolved over millenia. They are in fact imposing their own culture on the entire world, are they not?

This is not to say that we do not do the same things. If Sato had compared the killing of dolphins with the eskimo hunting of endangered whale species, that would have been more of an apples to apples issue. Instead, he mixed a moral/ethical issue with one of global ecology. Apples and Oranges. No culture has the right to tell another what their cultural standards should be. Any culture has the right to take a stand when another culture's practices threaten the global ecosystem.

I think Onyx was just trying to point out that while it may seem logical to say that we're just as bad for killing cattle as they are for killing dolphins, Sato's logic just doesn't follow through to conclusion because it leaves out a big part of the equation. Morally speaking, we are just as 'bad' as they are. Globally speaking, raising cattle on farms to be slaughtered for food is immeasureably more responsible than driving any species of animal towards extinction (to be slaughtered for food).

Although the discussion in this thread may be about whether or not killing animals for food is right or wrong, the picture was of dolphins being killed and was (sort of) accompanied by a quote that kicked off the discussion. That quote contained a deceptive logical fallacy. Sato's point about relative morality was a straw man; I have no problem stating that in my opinion the world has every right to tell the japanese to stop killing dolphins.

In short, it was a nasty picture and definitely not a nice thing to think about. I think the Japanese are in the wrong on this one. At risk of flamage, I suppose you could say I agree with OnyxCougar here. That said, I think that "Thanks for playing" isn't the best note to end a post on. It's always better to learn something from someone elses post than to have your feelings hurt.

Thanks for listening ;-)



*I know, I know...debateable.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Greetings Coliano, and welcome.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I see what you and OC are saying about the differences in the comparison but I think you are reading way to damn much into it. I don't think Sato was saying that killing dolphins is no more harmful to the sea than killing cows. He's talking about eating them. The quote was directly about eating dolphins. It didn't even reference how they die, yet that's been the big issue with the comparison. That's not what he was talking about. You've added way to much meaning to what was said. Keep it down to a comparison of eating one type of meat vs. another and you'll be on topic with the quote.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now on the subject of the numbers of dolphins left in the wild... That should be solid grounds for making these slaughters internationally illegal. But that's another discussion.

My first impression on seeing the photo was "wow, that so has to be 'shopped."

Let me put it this way now, "I so hope that it's 'shopped."

(Snopes has not yet spoken on this particular issue.)

As far as DNK's slaughterhouse photos go, so what. I have no illusions where my dinner/breakfast meats are coming from. Seeing pictures of industrial meat production is not going to change my desire for tasty bacon (and hardened arteries. No illusions, remember?)

I don't feel worse about folks eating dolphins just because they're cute and appear to be darn smart. I wasn't all that attached to Flipper as a child. Pigs are supposed to be smart too. Doesn't stop me from enjoying a ham sandwich.

Hell, they had to rename dolphin fish in order to sell it in American restaurants.

Thanks Whit glad to be here. It's a great place and all you regulars are why I keep coming back,

No threadjack intended. I confess to not having read the accompanying article before posting. A sin I know

Having read it I understand the context. As you say he was simply comparing the eating of one type of meat vs. another.

So here's my 2c.

Sato aside however and without weighing in on whether killing animals for food is right or wrong I think that when endangered or imperiled species are at risk, 'cultural bias' should be a non-issue. The japanese in this case, rationalize the dolphin hunt to westerners as a 400 year old cultural tradition. While I can't morally justify my objections to their eating dolphins, I can certainly justify my objections to their *killing* them.

Hopefully it won't be too long before we can synthetically 'grow' the flesh of the animals we eat. I know signifigant strides are being made in that arena. Besides, dolphins are too cool to kill.

(are we sure these aren't actually sharks? Shark tastes great, you know)

And nothing in the thread about the relative intelligence of dolphins compared to cattle?

For me that's the thing that makes it no longer apples to apples. Cattle may not like being raised and slaughtered, but they lack any conscious concept of what's happening to them. While I would prefer they not suffer during the process, the fact that they can't ask why it's happening makes all the difference.

I'm sorry, UT, I'm so busy being misunderstood about the frigging quote, and being called a hypocrit because I eat meat, that I'm afraid to actually respond to that.

Now let's discuss MY relative intelligence for not noticing that there WERE points made about dolphin intelligence. Sorry.

She wandered into a conversation and turned it into a debate.

coliano - You make a mostly valid point, but I think she's demonstrated that what you are talking about is not at all what she is talking about.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Isn't it interesting that for all the debate going on here we have all seem to dislike the dolphin slaughter and agree it's not our place to tell the Japanese what to do?

dolphins or porpoises?

Are the Dolphins or Porpoises, and do you think that matters?

I know people get the two mixed up a LOT.

Porpoise is chewier.

What's a hypocrit?

It's interesting how one can have such great respect for animals and such little respect for fellow human beings.

Well, in the defense of animals, they generally don't do stupid things like murder and stock fraud. Any killing they do is out of necessity, not for the pure glee. They have a pretty strong tendency not to be liars and they didn't create the atomic bomb or Nelson (the band).

Wild cattle are called aurochs. Aurochs were domesticated into cattle in five different places roughly five thousand years ago. I had thought that aurochs went extinct at roughly the same time, but according to a site from Google, a herd of aurochs survived in the care of the Polish kings until the early 1600s.

Since the intelligence of cows has fallen so dangerously low, I believe that any attempt to re-introduce cows into the wild would end in blumbering failure.

Right you are xoxoxoBruce, thus the asterisk and the debateable comment. But that would be a whole other discussion now wouldn't it? Just trying to stay somewhere close to the topic at hand.

I'd recommend it.

And since quzah can't debate without personal insults, I decided he's not worth debating with.

Quote:

Originally posted by coliano Right you are xoxoxoBruce, thus the asterisk and the debateable comment. But that would be a whole other discussion now wouldn't it? Just trying to stay somewhere close to the topic at hand.

Yeah, like that's gonna happen.

I think it is an uncommon but not hypocritical or self-contradictory to hold that human concern for an individual animal is what gives that animal value "worth" in the sense of whether it's ok to kill it or not.

That said, I think Dolphins are high enough up the intellgence and uniqueness chain that their killing on a large scale should give us pause. (I have a moral sense that uses "non-trivial uniqueness" as a rough measure of a creatures value, what the universe loses when that life is snuffed out. It sounds a little cold, but actually is a pretty morally defensible position I think.)

**ducks**

ummmm...ducks....

Okay, ducks:

I think they're much prettier with the feathers on them.

Quote:

Originally posted by coliano Right you are xoxoxoBruce, thus the asterisk and the debateable comment. But that would be a whole other discussion now wouldn't it? Just trying to stay somewhere close to the topic at hand.

You folks should be ashamed of yourselves. Those are obviously sharks...

Intelligent?

Of course, Hermit. Any critter that engages in recreational sex, has to be intelligent.

That'd be free range fire-roasted ducks, of course.

Right. Killed in accordance with local laws.

Makes me want chinese now. Duck with that cherry sauce and the cucumbers thinly sliced, served with those eeny weeny rice tortilla things.

*drool*

Quote:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar Right. Killed in accordance with local laws.

Absolutely.

Quote:

Originally posted by OnyxCougar Right. Killed in accordance with local laws.

What does ok have to do with laws?

Apples and oranges.

Quote:

Originally posted by bmgb Be careful. Wouldn't want anyone to think you CARE about animals.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bet it would make a great garnish for a nice plate of dolphin.

Did someone mention "chinese food"? (drool)

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce Ground apples and oranges with cranberrys is scrumptious.

Quote:

Originally posted by bmgb Be careful. Wouldn't want anyone to think you CARE about animals.

If they use enough MSG and/or sauce, it makes little difference what the meat is. The important things are that it comes in the little folded paper box and they deliver.

Another case of honest entrepreneurs being dogged by the authorities.

Why use another thread [you know you won't] when you've already started on this one!?

I used to really dislike subject drift in the threads on the Cellar, and I tried to sketch out another forum which would avoid the problem, but that died. I'm much more nonchalant about it now, and hey! it's fun!

Maybe someone (with an exorbinant excess of free time) should sift and index the Cellar.

Are you a virgo?

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce aside-I was in Madrid one night with a Chinese engineer doing some sightseeing. Neither of us spoke Spanish and our interpreter (an engineer from South America) had taken off to visit friends. We found a Chinese resturant that had menus in Spanish and English so I told him what I wanted in English. He told the waiter what I wanted in Mandarin and the waiter told the cook in Cantonese. We paid in Spanish and tiped them with dollars.

chinese food

I had Chinese food in a German restaurant the other day.

....and two hours later, I was hungry for power.

Quote:

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce We found a Chinese resturant that had menus in Spanish and English so I told him what I wanted in English. He told the waiter what I wanted in Mandarin and the waiter told the cook in Cantonese. We paid in Spanish and tiped them with dollars.

But was it AB's Budweiser or Budvar's Budweiser (made in the Czech republic)?

(Whereabouts in St. Louis, dar? Or perhaps the more appropriate question to ask...where did you go to high school? )

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore But was it AB's Budweiser or Budvar's Budweiser (made in the Czech republic)? (Whereabouts in St. Louis, dar? Or perhaps the more appropriate question to ask...where did you go to high school? )

[beer snob]Budweiser Budvar is the REAL Budweiser. The weak, watery concoction that MAY be based on a recipe stolen from the fine czech brewmasters is unworthy of being considered "beer" in any practical sense.[/beer snob]

Mass production American Beer is like making love in a canoe.

IT'S FUCKING CLOSE TO WATER

-LIVE FROM THE HOLLYWOOD BOWL MONTY PYTHON

Those poor little dolphins! My life is dolphins I love them so much. How can they do such a thing!

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do what? Kill the dolphins? With something sharp by the looks of the water. Eat the dolphins, just going with the stereotype, but with rice I'd imagine. Oh, and Soy Sauce.

Quote:

Originally posted by r9703410 Those poor little dolphins! My life is dolphins I love them so much. How can they do such a thing!

Yeah, I had a drink of my Dad's beer once and nearly vomited. Don't do beer. No opinion on it other than that.

Ok. I've held off as long as I could, but I can't help myself. This is a portion of "Carrot Juice is Murder" by Arrogant Worms

Listen up brothers and sisters come hear my desperate tale
I speak of our friends of nature trapped in the dirt like a jail
Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night
This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight
Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime
Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream

Chorus:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

You can read the rest of the lyrics here:

Carrot Juice is Murder

Actually, I'm a vegitarian. So ah!

Dar, I don't think so. Most of the people I know in that area went to Catholic schools.