4/8/2003: Protest gets painful

Oakland police ratcheted up the "war on protests" by loading up with rubber bullets and wood "pellets" to stop protesters. Some people were hurt. One guy had his hand shattered.

The protesters were ratcheting up the volume themselves, by trying to block access to a shipping company that was apparently involved in shipping to the war effort.

Apparently, this is the first time that any projectiles have been used in protests in the US for this war.

Wa Post story

This one enters into some very murky waters. On one hand, the use of these wooden pellets or "batons" is really over the top.

Description of wooden batons and proper usage

That page explains: the wooden rounds work by "producing incapacitation by blunt impact trauma and excruciating pain." It also says "IMPORTANT NOTE: Never aim at or above the Sternum. Less Lethal Ammunition can cause contusions, abrasions,broken ribs, concussions, loss of eyes, superficial organ damage, serious skin lacerations massive skull fractures, rupture of the heart or kidney, fragmentation of the liver, hemorrhages, and death."

Death. Huh.

On the other hand, actually interrupting a military operation is going much further than speaking out with signs and marching. Whether you're for or against the operation, it's happening, and to interrupt the supply of it is to put troops at risk. The 250 mile supply line into Baghdad actually starts from these port cities, thousands of miles away.

And then there are the costs. San Francisco has learned that the city itself is affected by the protests there, having to deal with almost a million dollars in additional costs because of them. (But much more positively affected by having the city unofficially represent the counter-culture!) One can only imagine how the city of Oakland makes its decisions when looking over at its neighbor, when it would have a harder time of affording such additional costs. And yet, by opening themselves to lawsuits, Oakland may find its approach even more costly than San Francisco's!

The proper way to address this might have been to arrest the protesters for trespassing, and then petition the feds to add treason to the charges. You can demonstrate, you can speak, you can march, but you can't interrupt shipments to troops. Don't ratchet up the physical pain threshhold for protesting: elevate the debate to taking it to courtrooms.

Apparently the cops also shot at and injured a couple of longshoremen who had shown up to work and were waiting for Oakland's finest to clear out the protestors blocking the entrance.

I suppose it would be silly and racist of me to point out that, were these people staging a protest in interference with any sort of military operation in, say, Iraq, that they would probably have been beaten, shot, burned, kidnapped, raped and tortured for their punishments?

Protest is legitimate, interference with a military support operation is not. In fact, I feel that it more closely borders on treason than anything that Peter Arnett said, and I think *he's* an idiot.

Scream, yell, wave signs, perform acts of passive civil disobedience, but stay the hell out of the way of the military when it is actively operating, otherwise, expect to get your ass kicked for your trouble.

I'm not saying it is right to injure protesters, I'm saying (much as I said about the bulldozed protester in Gaza) that if you interfere with something that is not going to be interfered with, expect to get hurt.

Thank God they weren't using pepper spray!

I don't think there's a way to rinse that off her[his?] pie-hole.

Well, a few things. Dispersing a large crowd is a lot different than taking away a single person. If they had fired rubber bullets at a woman holding a sign and being in the way... well, that's pretty re-goddamn-diculous. On the other hand, I have little sympathy for these people. The police don't have much of a choice when there are 750 people that are obstructing a very serious operation. You need to get them out of there, and fast. Taking all day to do it could cost lives. Again, if it were a single person, arrest makes perfect sense. But not in this case.

She certainly shouldn't have a wound to her face, but the cops are generally pretty good about that. I'm guessing she didn't realize what was happening and ducked, which is the dumbest thing you can do with less lethal ammunition, because it greatly increased the chances of you being <b>permanently</b> stopped. If you're hit over the heart with a bean bag, you're a goner.

The best bet is to not do stupid shit like obstructing an area like that with a large crowd, where the police really have no choice but use these methods.

They forgot about O-HI-O.

Real cool.

That doesn't look like a richochet wound, someone took a head shot on a girl. She's very lucky it was a glancing blow.

These are "less lethal" munitions, not non-lethal. Take a straight-on head shot with a baton (dowel) round and you die. I thought they had stopped making those things because they were so dangerous. The instructions call for skip-firing, not taking direct aim.

A riot once broke out on the street I live on. A cop took a head shot on a teenager with a bean bag round, and blew the victim's eyeball out of the socket. The police department later issued an apology and said they wished it had never happened.

Here's the deal. You don't use powder-actuated projectile weapons for crowd dispersal, that's what tear gas is for.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The cops also have this paint ball like round filled with white pepper. Finely ground. Makes a nice cloud or at least that's what I hear. It also hit's a little bit harder than a regular paint ball. How cool is that? Still, these are common enough that I've seen them in person. (Um... a cop showed 'em to me in a friendly way... not a ... hostile situation) It seems they would have been a better choice too.

pepper spray removal techniques

They told me to use warm water and LOTS of liquid soap.

I found that plain yogurt worked better.

Yes, I've been sprayed. Three times.

The military requires one to be sprayed once a year to maintain qualifications on it's use. I could use pepper spray for three out of the last four years that I was active duty.

The last qual, the instructor was using me to demonstrate how incapacitated a person would be for a class...I got up, took away his canister and let him have it. He didn't know that I can operate blind, I do not react well to pepper spray, that is, I do not have the full effect - (I don't breathe IN when sprayed...I hold my breath!)

This boy knows how to deal with most weapons that I might find on the street. Too bad the instructor wasn't breifed on that...HE had the full effect! HEHEHEHE

Brian

What I want to know is, why is there a bumble bee embedded in her nose?

Quzah.

I was originally going to make some comment about patchouli and stud-seeking rounds, but thought better of it. I was trying to be sarcastic about the pepper spray, and that you can't rinse the golfball and severe rug burn of her pie-hole.

Is it ok to interfere with the military operation?

Just two places.

June 4, 1989 - Tiananmen Square, Bejing, China.
August 19, 1991 - Moscow, Russia.

People there were lying before the tanks and died for what they beleived was right. It does take courage and not everyone is willing to do it, but I can only admire the courage of people who oppose what they think is wrong.

If one disagrees with "military operation" (which is an euphemism for war), if one disagrees with invading another country or with killing innocent civilians and is willing to stand for her beliefs, that is a great person. And it is not treason, but the highest form of loyalty to be able to say "my country is wrong" and attempt to correct while risking your life.

Well, it is kind of hard to argue against the war when there are millions of Iraqis celebrating in the streets for the first time in forty years.

And, I might add, if those people were there, keeping supplies from getting to American troops who put their lives at risk so we can be assholes back home... I'll hurt them myself.

Someone told me that Paranoid said: "If one disagrees with "military operation" (which is an euphemism for war), if one disagrees with invading another country or with killing innocent civilians and is willing to stand for her beliefs, that is a great person. And it is not treason, but the highest form of loyalty to be able to say "my country is wrong" and attempt to correct while risking your life."

Ergo, the current US regime is as abusive, dictatorial and oppressive as those in Communist China and the former Soviet Union?

Forgive me if I respectfully disagree. If our regime was as oppressive as those, and as that of Badhdad, you would be having your door kicked in right now and being dragged out into the street to be run over by tanks *involuntarily*.

We have problems in this country, but nothing that requires us to sacrifice our lives in martyrdom toward the overthrow of a corrupt regime for which human rights violations are a means of civil policing.

Protest and sacrifice are noble, especially when the alternative is being put to death by your own government. That doesn't happen very often in this country, and when it does, the people who get squished are usually doing a little more than leading peaceful, productive lives and exercising their freedom of speech. We have abuses of power in the US, but not for long...our people don't stand for it for more than the average four year term.

nonsense

Come on guys, isn't it a teeny weeny bit hypocrytical to suggest that

Uh. Okay. I think you missed something there.

Protest is fine. Go stand in the fuckin' road. Protest by interfering with shipments to troops? <b>That could cost lives.</b> That is not okay.

Good for you. I don't doubt it, be they in the streets or in their homes. Baghdad's population is 5 million; it's not unreasonable to think that 20% of them wanted him gone.

I want a head count, Dave, and names...also addresses, political party affiliation and whether or not they like their women to wear burqhas.

Without real proof, your statements are nothing but hyperbole.

I hate it when they protest in the summer. PA won't let me use my studded tires in the summer.

Quote:

Originally posted by Leus He stated that the majority of the people of Irak is happy about Saddam's "dissapearing" , but they are not celebrating yet.

When did Bush say that?

Wow. I'm shocked. What a moron.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Moron? I don't think so. Consider how short the average persons memory is. How many people have you heard bitching about the fact that Bin Laden has been forgotten since the war broke out? Very few is the answer Id have to give. It's simple substitution. Kinda basic, but very well orchestrated. So now Saddam is the big bad, and Bin Laden is last weeks news. If he keeps playing it this way we can expect a new great evil of the month from here on out. Even if the fate of Saddam remains uncertain he'll be forgotten. The question is, who's the next evil?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I haven't seen any of the supposed polls saying that most Americans believe Saddam was connected to 9/11, but if it's true then it would be indicative of how well Bush can manipulate the situation. Come to think of it I've never even talked to someone that held such a belief... Even if it's not true then he's still pulled off some stuff, such as going to war without UN backing, that I wouldn't have believed he could ever pull off when he was elected.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Yeah, 9/11 changed everything for him, but he's really worked it well. Calling Bush a moron plays into his game. He is a man that really knows how to work being "misunderestimated." Never just assume he's stupid. Every time people do that Bush comes out ahead. I'd be happy about this if I was convinced he'd bring the US along or the ride.

Just because people can't remember what they had for breakfast yesterday morning doesn't mean Bush is some sort of Genius Mastermind. I actually get the sense that he has about average intelligence, but I'd bet he's the one being manipulated.

The whole 9/11-terrorist mindset is sort of like the mob/rioting mentality. You don't have to be smart to get away with crazy shit. People just let you do it because they're caught up in the moment and forget their rationality.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I may have overspoke a little. I'm not suggesting Bush is some kind of genius. I'm saying that he's done a good job of getting what he wants. Hell, what has he not gotten that he wanted? If he doesn't have it yet then I bet he's working on getting it pretty quick.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Look at it from that point of view. I remember making jokes about how much Bush wanted to invade Iraq before 9/11. We never thought it would happen. After 9/11 most of the people I knew still didn't see it happening.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Now it has happened. I think a lot of the reason things have gone this far is that people still think Bush is an idiot.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;He can't talk right, but he sure seems to get his way. That is my point. If he is a moron could he have gotten his way so often?

I'll take Dubya over his sidekick anyday.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Actually ... I'm feeling a little queasy ... I've never said such nice things about Bush before ...

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Damn it, Juju! It's all your fault. ;]

I guess you're right. I've always ridiculed people who said the president is a moron, because obviously you don't get to that position without some skills. Now here I am doing it!


I've made a cursory effort to try to nail down a respectable source for the two Bush quotes in question. I just want to see it on a site that somebody's little brother couldn't have done up. Like a major news site, or something well-known.

The source for the last quote, The New American, is actually given. But it was still hard to find, because they transposed two of the words, therefore slightly changing the wording. This initially made a google search turn up nothing, but I did eventually find it here.

But I still have yet to find a trusted source for the second-to-last quote. It's the most incriminating one. The one that makes him look most like an idiot. The last quote could have just been taken out of context, but the second-to-last one is pretty damned clear. Anyway, the second-to-last quote is cited everywhere on the net. A google for "bush "bin laden" "not our priority"" turns up 145 hits. But no major news sites show up in the first four pages.

Did he actually say this, or did someone just say he said it and it caught on?

I found a site dated to April 18 2002 which claims that Bush made the second to last quote from BuzzFlash.

Also, damningly, I found a geocities site, whose owner made up quotes attributed to supermodels that wanted to have sex with him, with the quote by Bush.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I googled "Bush 3/13/02" and I got a list of sites. No major news sources that I noticed but there were a number on different sides. Seems likely he did say it. Though, again, I don't think it makes him a moron. More like a jerk.*

* (My kids are right here...)

I think you underestimate how easily false information can spread online.

buzzflash.com IS an authorized, authoratative source, isn't it??

uhh..

Normally, buzzflash.com would be an authoritive source. However, it so happens that Karen lost most of her credibility a year ago, with the infamous prediction she made last year regarding the leaf cartel.

SARCASM, dammit ... the winky smiley thingy denotes sarcasm, right?? or should I use fake tags to delimit the sarcastic remarks from now on ....

Of course, you COULD just take it as given that anything I say as goofy as that was intended to be sarcastic. :p

sheesh.

Quote:

Originally posted by juju I think you underestimate how easily false information can spread online.

Because they're sheep and buy the party line?

If you endanger the lives of the United States military, you are a really dumb person. That's why there was such a show of force at breaking up this demonstration. Again, I got no sympathy. I've got a friend somewhere over there and I want to make sure he's well supplied to do his job so he can get the fuck back and start posting to the Cellar again. Anyone that puts that at risk, well, I've got no sympathy for you.

Yup, it's ironic.

Bravo, Dave. And I would also like to go on record as saying that, although I was not 100% sold on the war, I am 100% sold on getting done what we set out to do and getting our people the hell out of Iraq. People who interfere with shipments of military materiel are attempting to screw up that process, and hence should expect to get hurt in the process. Their choice.

Now, can we all just get on with the business of wondering if GWB is going to just keep on chasing Saddam right into Syria? I will be even more dubious (Dubyaous?) of that possibility than I was of the current military excursion.

OK, dave, you go on discussing WWII and your interpretation of what it taught us about war.

In the meantime, I'm sorry if I thought we were talking about the very current war. (only half sarcastic)

Cheers,
D

My sincerest apologies that you were unable to comprehend the fact that I was talking about prior wars which supported freedom of speech. (completely sarcastic)

Quote:

I do hope not all dissenting voices are treated like this back home.

oxB me 2 OO