11/4/2002: Gay Games open

In Sydney over the weekend, the Sydney Gay Games opened for its sixth time. They have 12,000 competitors from 80 nations, no word on whether the 2000 Olympics facilities are in use. Participating in the opening was the very fine singer k.d. lang, who also celebrated her 41st birthday. (No, that's not k.d. on the ice there.)

I wonder whether it's more a sporting event or more a cultural event.

Yeah, I've always had a bit of a negative reaction to events such as these - gay games, indiginous games, etc.

I'm all for people's rights to do whatever they want. The pride marches are a wonderful spectacle, highlighting alternative lifestyles, and attract thousands of people to watch.

You don't see the 'caucasian games' or 'hetrogames'. There is nothing stopping either of the two afore mentioned groups from partaking in mainstream athletic competition.

....let the flames begin!.....

Re: 11/4/2002: Gay Games open

What I really want to know is, what the heck is he... uh... she... um... that person, holding in.... er.... damn you, pronouns! Anyway what is that thing? A frying pan? An oversized castanet?

I'd say it's a bit of both: a celebration of the culture, and a love of sport. Good stuff.

When I first saw k.d. perform on TV (with the Reclines), I thought she was a he.

The REAL issue here is that Shepps thinks she's a fine singer. What the hell is wrong with you?! Let me guess...you bought Kenny G's new CD the minute it hit the shelves, didn't you?

It's editorial! Post an image with one person in it, and then write a story with one person in it, and most people will think there's a connection. Probably more people have seen kd lang than haven't, but certainly there are a lot who haven't.

And she's a fine singer, with a great voice. And so were the "American Idol" candidates. If you go for that sort of thing.

It's all in jest. I don't particularly care for her music, but she's not a bad singer.

Hey! I liked the cowpunk kd. She was fun. She's gone all famous and adult contemporary, and that's too bad.

But as that great crooner Stompin' Tom Connors recalls...

Where the wild roses grow in Alberta-
On the banks of the Gooseberry lake
There's a rose I suppose that you hearda-
She's as mild as a wild Irish wake
Like a thorn she was born to be contrary
Like a boy's was her joy raising cain.
The wildest rose that ever drove on the prairie
behind the wheel of a big truckload of grain.
Chorus
Little k, little d, little l-a-n-g
Her name was just plain kd lang
But her main claim to fame was how she sang with a twang
And jumped around like a 'rangytang
lady k.d. lang

Hmm

Someone might try to make the point that promoting ridiculous steretypes(i.e., all gay men are promiscuous perverts who do things like go around dressed in women's clothing) is probably not the best way to acheive mainstream acceptance of homosexuality. Perhaps it would be better to communicate the idea that not all homosexuals are potential child-molestors who talk with a lisp.

Oh oh ... here we go.

Where the hell did that whole paedophillia link come fron anyway (apart from the catholic church)? Always seemed really silly to me. This sort of wierd idea that all those evilevil ungodly sexual peversions were somehow all interlinked or something.

This one *i'm* probably going to get flamed for (how unusual) but why can't gay athletes compete in the normal olympics?

He was out as soon as he hit the board.

Gay Games, Gray Games, the Aussies keep rollin' after the 2000 Olympics.

Should be in melbourne, we've got the highest rate of same sex couples in the world. I donno it all seems silly to me, madi gras etc fine but do we need a seperate everything for every bloody minority? I mean you're not going to find much antigay sentiment here (even one of our high court judges in openly gay and works for gay rights) and europe is equally if not more liberal and most of asia doesn't give a damn i mean it seems a tad pointless. On the other hand someone needs to make use of the billions in infrastructure sydney built.

Re: Hmm

Is there still much? Really? I'm mean pubicly its not going to be tollerated, lots of guys are a bit but thats just insecurity and generally predictable male behaviour, i'd say 1/5 at most. Its no PC, its not accepted i'd somehow doubt at something like the olympics it'd be tollerated at all. The only guys i can think of that are actually antigay as such are military types

Sadly, there is still quite a bit of anti-gay sentiment in this country...the 90s helped usher in more tolerance, but the hate is still there. Just less overt...like racism.

Re: Re: Hmm

> Caucasians and heterosexuals haven't been abused and ostracised like gays have been.

you don't play basketball, do you?

No, I hate sports.

Re: Re: Re: Hmm

I dunno, there is just something endearing about a drag queen.

A tale of closed closets in the NFL locker room....

Reality check. Any minority anywhere is going to get a bit of persecution. Simple as that. People fear things they don't understand or are not familiar with, doesn't matter whether its the chess club, gays, furries, white bball players the list is endless. I think the short and sweet of it is get the fuck over it. From what I’ve seen gay bashings now are about as common as KK killings and other extremists movements, that is not going to change and I think zorg does have a point that establishing separate events where it is highly debatable they are needed does alienate people which certainly is not going to help. There is a huge difference between a bit of insecurity and killing people. One of my best friends is a lesbian, she’s been abused verbally for PDAs in public by strangers, big deal, anyone who stands out and is different is going to cop crap, I’m sure we all have at one point in our lives or another.

If we're going to talk about White basketball players, or hell any professional sports where blacks dominate. Remember that it hasn't been that long ago that blacks were not accepted. And it wasn't protesting that brought about this change, it was some progressive white male who realize that blacks had skills and refused to care what others thought.

The most recent major controversy regarding minors in sports has been the hiring of black coaches in college football. I think there are something like 4 black coaches in NCAA division 1 football. Notre Dame's new head coach Ty Willingham is black, and his hiring brought this disparity to the medias attention, and now some people are getting up in arms and planning on "forcing" the NCAA and NFL to force teams to hire black coaches. Would this gain anything? Willingham went 7-0 to open his first season I would bet that this has more to do with future blacks being hired then anything.

For any Minority to be accepted in sports it is necessary for someone in the Majority accepting the minority and giving him the chance. But then that minority has to prove himself or herself. The sad thing is that the minority probably has to prove himself as better than the majority(The greatest human flaw is our inability to accept difference).

We have no idea what would happen if a football player came out when he was playing. I'm sure some people would have a problem with it, homophobia run rampant in our society, it's a sad fact though it's becoming a lot better. However, I would also guess that the majority of players wouldn't care as long as he played hard and produced. But the scary thing is, is that if this player came out, and really wasn't that good, and found himself cut a month after coming out imagine the controversy. People would be picketing NFL games for "discriminating against Gays". Even if this isn't the case, they would be “discriminating” against poor athletes.

Okay so I have a bunch of unconnected thoughts sprawled through this post but I guess my point was going to be that if gays are going to participate in the Olympics they have to go about it the same as any other athlete. If a gay athlete proved himself or herself, capable of competing and winning then they are going to be able to compete. Sure it’s going to create controversy, anything regarding change in minority status usually does. However, if the athlete proves that they are able to compete as well as any straight athlete they are going to be accepted by the mainstream in the end.

It all depends on where. I've known plenty of gay people who aren't harrassed about it every day. I'm sure "queer folk" have an easy time in places like San Francisco, too. Sure, in Arkan-fuck-your-sister-sas, the homophobic mentality reigns supreme. But it's not like that all over the country.

cam someone above me I forget you cited that example, I don't know anything about it I just assumed it had some basis.

I guess the kind of persecution is based on where you live, these are global gay games, not the Sydney gay games. Rural Australia is no better than deep south US, with an even more intolerable accent. Anyone that screams minority! Victim! Poor little I etc tend to piss me off. The madi gras in sydney and the Chinese community here has a history of doing it, it pisses everyone off, including members of both groups. On the other hand I think the Madi Gras is a truly sweet event, I'm hopefuly going next year with a few friends next year actually, the gay games on the other hand just seems silly. I mean the masters games/grey games is for people that otherwise wouldn't have a venue for competition, the gay games seems more about a statement that gays are somehow unique and different and therefore cannot compete in the ordinary Olympic games. Well gee sorry maggie, last I checked we were discussing it. Sure its none of my damn business, sure as hell doesn't stop me holding an opinion.

I think the Gay Games disappoint me because it's a reminder that homosexuals don't feel comfortable being themselves in society. Many don't feel able to just "be gay". As I've said before, it really doesn't bother me at all - I just wasn't raised to believe that it was wrong or right or anything.

And it's sad seeing places like the Westboro Baptist Church breeding hate in people - especially children. They're making the problem worse. They are the same as any other far-right bunch of lunatics - they want to keep America "uniform", without blacks or hispanics or gays or Jews. One of the defining characteristics of the United States is that we are of all races. We're the melting pot of the world. And it's beautiful and good that way.

missed your coment Nic, don't know about where you live but its not going to be privately tollerated here either, you're misinterpreting what I said either way.

Dave is saying that it's society that makes him sad, and I'm agreeing with him.

I'm recalling the way I felt, and I think the way USians felt, the weeks following 9/11. As much as I don't bring it up, it was an odd feeling at times that all of a sudden we weren't all different groups any longer, but that all of a sudden everything that everyone felt brought us completely together. We weren't straights and gays, whites and blacks and asians and puerto ricans, poor rich or middle class, etc. We were just americans trying to figure out what happens next.

Depending on how jaded you were, it took between a week and a year for that to feeling to subside to the point where you could safely feel disdain for your fellow man.

But for a while there was no need for any gay games or segregated parades or anything else. Wouldn't it be cool if it didn't take a national emergency with deaths and destruction, to feel like post-9/11 all the time?

Never been to a gay bar, been to a gay nightclub, that was pretty good (friends first time wanted me to come with him, first time a guy tried to pick me up, odd experience. Sets just seem to be better, this is techo we're talking about keep that in mind. I guess events that attaract diverse audiances tend to have better music. Some of the big ones held down at the warves like hardware were just fantastic, pity they shut that down, now the best events are ones like earthcose held out in forrests, great fun and attract a really good mix of people. Maggie most decent events ahve chillout areas where you can chat/socialise etc, they're called raves/dance parties for a reason. 100db is tame too


UT you reminded me of this fantastic song by Tom Lehrer, absolute legend that guy.

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
Lena Horne and Sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during National Brotherhood Week, National Brotherhood Week,
It's National Everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood Week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

I'm not doing well today

Originally posted by jaguar

As for your normal olympics comment, what woulld you prefer i call it, the striaght olympics? The evil olympics for the repressive majority?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The straight Olympics" works for me. They're not evil, but they're not a reason to not have the Gay Games.

_____________

But gay people aren't barred from the Olympics so I don't think "straight Olympics" works either.

Re: Re: Hmm

I have but one question. Do they separate between men's and women's events? If so, how?

Maybe they could use a weighted average. They would have to assign each competitor something like a male/female ratio score. Your score or time in each event would be adjusted based on that ratio (kind of like a degree of difficulty adjustment in diving).

I guess that would just be one more thing to argue about. "I got screwed, they said I'm still 45% male, when I'm sure I'm no more than 30%." Or something like that.

And where would that put Tonya Harding? On one hand she's got that biker chick toughness, on the other hand she appears to be enthusiastically hetero. As a matter of fact, considering the fact that she is an Olympic athlete and a little on the tough side, I think I would place her in the on my just now formed

"Top 10 Women it Would Be Dangerous to Literally 'Screw With' (But might be worth it)" list.

Candidates would be those who from non-B&D sexual activity, would be most likely to place their partners in the emergency room (or morgue).

That could be a hot thread, if you'd care to start one!

Free and Clear

Here is an article out of ESPN the magazine about the gay NFL football player. Very interesting, it is actually written by him with the help of another editor. Very worthwhile reading.

Gay Games!

Okay when I first saw this all I saw was a silly fag on ice. Then I went on to read it was the 6th Annual Gay Games. What a bunch of hooey. I see that someone posted that there shouldn't be a gay games due to the fact that they could participate in the normal olympics. I have to say "RIGHTO"

Now before you start the moaning and complaining (and flaming) let me add that I am a gay man. I still think the whole thing is a bunch of crap and I really don't want to hear that "Yes but they have been opressed for years." GET OVER IT. Besides the fact I really don't see how a 60 year-old drag queen on ice skates is going to further the cause of gays and lesbians everywhere.

To me it sets us back. Why? Here is why. The olympics are a set of games that are created for the elite, many gays have been in the oylmics and been quite good at it. Now along comes a group of wimpy pansies and says "Thats too hard" , "This doesn't celebrate the beauty inside me", whatever. You created a set of games becasue you are not good enough to be in the regular olympics.

DO YOU REALLY THINK IS THE WAY TO GET RESPECT? Why don't you be the best that you can be and be come the best Swimmer, Skater, Gymnist, or Weightlifter possible, and leave the GAY out of it. Why is is that gays feel like they have to annouce they are gay. Do you see other groups doing this. To me is is just a big joke, you want respect from the rest of the community there is ONE way to gt it. Act like a normal human being, stopping forcing "GAY" down everyones throats. Hell for the most part gays piss me off worse than anything else on earth and I know that if I am this annoyed then the rest of the world must be feed up with you.

As it has already been said. . . . Let the Flames begin!

Re: Gay Games!

Closeted or 'OUT'

Maggie and everyone else that would like to know:

I have no idea what the hell that means I never have. I mean are you asking if I go up to everyone an say 'Hi, I am Phil and I am a homosexual' well then the answer would be NO. Why would you do that. I mean you can be who you are without announcing it with flags waving.

Now, if you are asking if people know that I am gay. Well that would depend on how much intelligence they have. I always announce my partner as my partner and I make no bones about having a one bedroom house and have two grown men living there. If someone asks me if I am gay of course my answer would be yes, as I do not make it a regular habit to be a liar.

There are a lot of things about me people don't know. Do some people at work know, yes? Do they all know? Hell no, do you go to work and announce the sexual positions you use. You may to some to others it is of no consequence. Why do some people feel that they have to announce being gay. To be quite frank, most people do not deserve to know that much about me. Do you feel you have to tell everyone your sexual preference? I mean are you OUT as a heterosexual and if you say yes how do you know? I mean do you make it a point to say hey I am MaggieL and like to blow guys or girls. Why does ones life have to be based on the sex they have? Really people say, be colorblind and racism will fade, don’t mind what sexual preference people are and hatred will go away. If we are all supposed to be so integrated why is everyone trying to divide everything? I mean if you are truly color blind why say I am white, or I am black? If you have no problem with sexual preference then why do you have to say I am gay or straight?

I guess it is just my philosophy on life you see when I see people I tend to think more than what color, what sex, what sexual preference, or what nationality they are . I tend to not care.

So am I out? Well MaggieL I guess I just don’t thing you earned the right to know.

BTW what the HELL? Why do they have to worry about looking 'normal' are they abnormal in some way? I guess they think they are or else why invent a seperated set of games, and if you are going to ask if a man dressing in women's clothing is normal well let me take the bigoted approach and say "NO" is is not normal and Yes, there are are a set of stanards we live by.

"I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is."

Re: Closeted or 'OUT'

You say that people don't need to know whether or not you're gay, but isn't that just a rationalization for your shame at them knowing?

These other gays aren't trying to "shove it in people's faces". They're expressing who they are, because they love themselves and have a high self-confidence.

No. I think what he's saying is "it's really none of your fucking business". He obviously isn't ashamed of it or he wouldn't have admitted it here. He just doesn't feel the need to flaunt it.

No, i'm not saying work it into irrelevant conversation. That'd just be silly.

I pretty much agree with philgump on this one. I don't just go around saying "I got laid last night." It's no one's business but mine (and my partner's, if I did indeed) - but I won't lie about it either. I just don't offer it up.

It's fine to be gay and proud if that's what floats your boat. But as for being yourself openly, I don't think it needs to include your sexuality. Whether or not someone is gay is not immediately physically obvious, like color of skin. So "being yourself" shouldn't mean that they have to fit into the stereotypical gay male mold - "I'm sthooper!" I know exactly one gay male where you could just <b>tell</b> - and a number of others where you couldn't.

So basically, the point is, you don't need to announce it to be yourself. Just like straight people don't introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Donald and I'm straight", gay persons don't need to introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm Phil and I'm gay."

Juju, I wouldn't tell anyone you're from Arkansas either.

It's amazing how different cultures can be. If two guys held hands in the US, they would almost automatically be labeled as "gay." In the Arab world, from what I understand, that is considered a sign of good friendship.

Or maybe it's that you don't know who they are. That's the thing with people who are out. their friends probably know they are out but you can't tell who they are when you walk down the street. Which is a indicator that they are the same as you and me. I think the biggest thing is that people have very little experience with actual acquaintences who are gay. If they had that experience instead of famous people who suddenly come out, most people would have a different view of gays.

I personaly have had no experience with someone who is gay so I'm making this up as I go. But if I found out my friends were gay it would be quite a shock. Though I like to think I would be able to handle it and look at them the same.

The Fourth Annual Transgender Day of Remeberance!!!

See that is what I mean....segragation!!!

Well, I declare this the first Annual day of people with medium brown hair that like bananas and like to eat them frozen dipped in chocolate while sipping diet cola day. Why not make a day for Jews for Hitler!

BTW Dave, I have to say I would not hold another mans hand while out and about in town. You see there is are certain things you don't do. I mean is if you enjoyed throwing up and eating it would you still do it in public NO! Why because it is not yet socially acceptable. Do you still have the right to eat your own barf? Sure, but that would not be appropriate at this age in history. perhaps as people grow more fond of puke eating it will become ok, like spitting *this one I still think is gross* anywhere that you happen to be.

My Point and I do have one (he he inside joke) is that we live in an age where it is OK to be gay but not OK for them to make out in public. That is just the age we live in DEAL WITH IT!

To all that may ask and I have seen sveral NO I AM NOT ASHAMED TO BE GAY!!!!! I just don't think it is the best word that describes me. Perhaps some people are so shallow and two-dimensional that they have to rely on catorgorizing themselves as *GAY* becasue that is the most interesting thing about them. I on the other hand would much rather be known as the guy that makes people laugh, or that crazy guy than to be known as that gay guy! Hmmm perhaps it is just me but being known as "The Gay Guy" just seems to be a bit degrading. Just like if I catorgorized maggie as that "Dyke Chick".

Sweet jesus. I've been following this post for a while and I just haven't said anything until this moment.

Not to be the obnoxious one with the dictionary or anything but:

queer (kwîr)
adj. queer·er, queer·est
Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.
Slang. Fake; counterfeit.
Feeling slightly ill; queasy.
Offensive Slang. Homosexual.
Usage Problem. Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.

What is the deal with MaggieL using the word queer? Anyone else finding that odd? Reminds me of the other day I was at a thrift store and asked the owner what charity her store supported, and she said she started the store herself "Because
my daughter is a retard, and I wanted to help other retards."
I'm sorry but that is not right. Saying "My daughter is mentally retarded" or "mentally challenged" would have been nicer than busting out with "shes a retard and i wanna help other retards."
Maybe the fact that she then said "We are going to take all the donation money to take the retards to Disney World because retards seem to like that" made it a bit worse....but back to the issue..

In my opinion "those damn queers" are people too. We had to vote on seperate gay rights in South Florida earlier this year and I don't think that gay people should have their own set of rights. Everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated the same. One minute people are screaming about segregation, and the next they are seperating themselves again.

If we are going to give gay people their own set of games, then what I would like to know is where is the Olympics for fat people that can't run as fast?

I would have to agree with Phil, I understand what he is trying to say about not wanting gay people to be seperated from others that are "normal." I happen to have a lot of friends that are "gay" and they are "normal" to me. I have seen people go out of their way to bash gay people because they are holding hands, so I can completely understand Phil's reasoning behind not flaunting it in public.

I could have lived without the barf theory, Phil...and BTW, nice plug for Ellen's book

*~Tara~*

Re: The Fourth Annual Transgender Day of Remeberance!!!

I ab*******solutely agree

I agree with lawman wholeheartedly. Do whatever the f*** you want, but if you want to be taken seriously do it with the rest of the world and then prove your point. Still, I would take points on the number of falls in that long program.

Just mt opinion

Well, I am not going to bring anyone around to my way of thinking...not that I would even try. I guess I was just born in the wrong age....I just see people following MaggieL's way of thinking about being touchy feely and making sure we don't hurt anyones feelings. Meanwhile look around you the world you are living is falling apart in little shards and has been doing so ever since World War II ended. Not to say that the world was a bed or roses before. I agree it was not.

I will say this, in my mind the politically correct, touchy feely, make sure no on is excluded concept is turning this country and several others into a bed of horseshit, which may grow flowers for your guns but isn't doing a darn thing for the good of the country. Am I calling for hatred and brutal anarchy? NO!

What I am saying is that frivolous lawsuits are teeming, self-respect is at an all time low for most teenagers (just look at the girl who just came to this country, had a baby smothered it to death, and is now being defended by lawyers that she didn't understand because of the culture she is from) and everyone seems to care less for his fellowman than ever he did before. Yet you still say that this type of segregation and sub dividing is working!

All is seems to do is breed resentment not togetherness, it breeds mistrust not communication, it breeds misunderstandings not community pride! If you think that the gay/lesbian/transgendered community showed up to see a drag-queen on ice because they were proud, think again. I have been in the gay community all my life and it is not pride that this kind of spectacle invokes; it is humor. Yes, I am sorry everyone is laughing at him not with him, and it is not the evil 'straight' people. It is the very people you are calling the 'Queer Community'. I have been around enough to know what the 'Queer Community' is about and it is not pride.

It is about boastful, egotistical, pompous, hedonists, (and before someone jumps in, I am speaking in generalities but for the most part if people are honest will agree, don’t believe me watch a gay film.) that only care about the next person they can have sex with. They for the most part are a group of people that place no value or worth on a person beyond the money they have in the bank, the size of the penis they have in their pants, or what kind of body they have. You may convince some people here that this is a stereotype that doesn’t exist, but you aren’t piss on me and tell me it is raining. I may have been born on a Tuesday but, it wasn’t last Tuesday.

Lawman

Well, one good thing came out of my post, I bet you lawman didn't get flamed even once.

What?!?

Juju, are you speaking from experience? I met Jon in College, in Memphis, Tennessee at Crichton College which is a Christian Bible Collage. All my friends there know and they are all still my friends. They still fly down to Florida to visit me.

Only one out of maybe 20 friends, decided to be an asshole about the whole thing, and even he an ex-military person didn't attack me physically. He just decided we shouldn't be friends.

There are going to be assholes in every group up until this good old earth is either blown up, we all evolve, or become extinct.

I am not saying gay-bashing, race crimes, or even or any hate crimes do not exist, but they are NOT as often as you think and if any one would like to do the statistics I think it was determined that gays performs more crimes on others gays that there are straight-gay crimes. I wish I had those facts at hand.

My point is even if every straight person was forced to love every gay ( I refuse to use the word queer). There would still be hate. It is the nature of the beast, people will hate you for religion, political affiliation, color, creed, whether you like cream or whole kernel. . . . it just goes on and on.

I did a tolerance course once and they split the room into two groups, behind the scenes they had noted the eye color of everyone in the room. The blue eyes were moved to the left while the others were moved to the right. This was all unbeknownst to the people being split up. Then the teacher had us each read an article about how science had, figured out that people of blue eyes were of a greater intelligence than that people of any other color. We were to read the article and report back as a group. All but physical violence almost broke out. Why, 10 minutes earlier eye color was the last thing on anyone’s mind? The answer was, because someone pointed out that there WAS a difference. The teacher went on to say that the article was fake and that there were no such findings, but what do you know the blue-eyed people were still smug about the whole thing at break and I still think blue-eyed people have this arrogance about them, that my friends is a real life lesson in hatred. Make your self stand out, force others to notice and I promise you people WILL hate you for it. It is the very nature of what we are. Maybe it is leftover from our primal past where being different meant you could pose a greater danger to the group, you know the strong survive. It may not be right but it is factual!

Re: What?!?

Most people around here are baptists, and nearly all of them think that being gay is immoral.

okay sorry I got a littlle out of hand. I still think saying most chrisitians think all gays are going to hell is a little extreme. Not that there aren't those that due. I'm sure the percentage of christians who believe gay's are going to hell is the same percentage of those in of other religions that think gays are evil and should die.(pulled completely out of my ass, with no statistical proof)

Where I live(the bible belt), about 95% are anti-gay. I don't know how other places and denominations are. I can only judge from the set of Christians i've personally met. I really hope it's different in other places, but most of the Christians i've met are bigots (case in point).

I know it's quite likely they're not all like this. It's just that for some reason I don't know very many of the good ones.

I think it really is a bible belt thing. My sister and brother-in-law spent a few years bouncing around the South while he was getting his career on track. My sister spent a lot of time among right wing "christians" and I don't think she gained from it. Her life down south was strange. It seemed like men and women were segregated with a lot of womens groups and the like, hardly a Christian way of life IMHO. Like Cam, I'm a Catholic and was never exposed to the kind of hate juju's link exposes. For most Catholics our faith is about living the sort of life that others might look at and think "those folks have something special going there." Leading by example has taken a big hit with the abuse scandals and may yet get uglier as the conservatives try to drive gay priests out of the church. Gotta get to work....

It's good to know there's some sanity out there. I guess this is one of those cases where you look around you and assume it's that way everywhere. A false assumption, but an easy one to make.

I'll be getting my CS degree at the end of next year (yay!), then Kathy and I are going to get the hell out of this crazy place. I'm really thinking of Dallas, Texas, though, so i'm not sure how different religion is in that area. Not that that would affect my decision.

I'm not sure exactly what my opinion on the whole thing is, as far as what constitues a "woman" vs. "living as a man"... okay, so "Brandon" was living as a man, but... had a vagina. Which is a pretty distintively female characteristic. I think probably the most accurate way to describe it would be "Teena Brandon was a girl, living as a man, who liked girls." But I'm not sure that I feel it's accurate to call her a man.

Re: Just mt opinion

Sorry for the long post!!!!

"...I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself. "

Well when I describe other gays I am not describing myself, I do not prance around with one wrist limp, with a lisp and saying things like "Girl you better work", "Okay Girlfriend" and "Faaaaabulous". If everyone should be himself why is it a large majority of gays act like every other gay that adore Barbara Streisand, Judy Garland, and let's not forget Dorothy and the Wizard of OZ. I do not cock my head to one side, snap my fingers and say things like mmmmmmhhhhmm, all right child work it. If these people wanted to "INVOKE THEIR INDIVIDUALITY”, then why do most drag queens look like one another. Why if they a 'woman trapped in a mans body' do they dress like Tammy Faye blew up on them. I have to say that is NOT normal for a straight woman OR a transgendered wo(man). If you want to know why I think they do these things. Attention! They want to be in the lime light. They want to scream at the world look at me, look at me, and then when the world does look at them a say "YUCK" they say how dare you judge me! Well, welcome to the lime light that is the price you pay for getting noticed. Every person who is been in the lime light will agree that your life is under the microscope and people are just waiting for you to f**k it all up.

I choose to live the life of a true individual, I like music because I like it, even though it may not be popular (They Might Be Giants and Dead Lizards) not because if I don't peers will say "that lame ass shit, whatever Mary", I like movies because they inspire me to think (Fight Club) or because I don't want to think at all (Super Troopers) not because it is the gay thing to do (Chuck and Buck, and Jeffery). I like to wear clothes to make comfortable not because its all the gay rage (Dolce and Gabbana, Versace) that is how I mange to live with myself.

"30 percent of all completed youth suicides are related to the issue of sexual identity."


Why do you think this is....I know why I almost succumb to it. I saw what gays were and I kept telling my self I am not like them I am not gay. I like baseball, I am not a sissy, I just like guys! Then I realized on day (with the help of my SOUTHERN BAPTIST friends) that being gay didn't mean all of that it meant I liked guys! That’s it, period nothing else. I had nothing to prove, no banner to wave, no war to wage, no masses to convert. It was just a non-issue.

I think a lot of those suicides are due to the fact that the people think that to be gay you have to change into the picture that started this post. They think they have to take up the "Gay MANual" and ACTUAL BOOK! After thumbing through the pages I thought Uggh this is what they think I am, and it was written by gays for gays.

You know I am only 30 years old, (yes, I was born in 1973 MaggieL) but I have learned quick, gays will use you for what they can tell you they are there for you then the very next week, wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, and if anyone has the audacity to say that it isn't true is a bold faced liar. If you have been around the gay community for over 6 months you will see how they use one person after the next. Now, I will be the first to say there are gays that are NOT like this. I am not so stupid or so blind as not know that to every rule there are always exceptions and now, like always life is never an absolute. But, when you see it time and time again, it is hard not to be a little jaded. Maggie if you have never uttered the phrase to the tune of "I am so damn fed up with these queens/fags/queers. Then I am sorry I have cause to doubt anything else you say.

To be honest with you I am so sick of the ‘you have to be this to be gay’ syndrome is make me want to snap. I happen to like Hockey, and I like to sit around in my house while eating a chili dog and drinking a beer and kick back and enjoy a game. If gays are as diverse and unique as you suggest, find me 10 gays, just ten that can name off hand five professional hockey, football, baseball or basketball players. Why does one the most popular gay sites on the net Gay.com not even have a section for sports, but has a section called “Essential Gay CD’s – Must have queer CDs”. Oh that’s right I am gay and when that gene kicked in during conception so did the k d. Lang, Crystal Waters, ABBA, and the love of any musical gene, as well as the taste for any man under the age of 25 with rippling abs. Well I guess I am only a half-baked gay then, because I don’t like any of that shit. Are you trying to tell me that 10% of the entire population of the world, who happen to be gay or transgendered just happen to like all the same movies, music and activities, are you serious?!? Yet, they do? Or at least that’s what Gay.com and Out magazine The Advocate and queer.com (OutProud) seem to think.

So if you now still wonder why I think like I think and can’t stand the gay scene, well my friend it is because is fake and a complete farce. If I needed to know how to think then I would be back in the stodgy 1950’s. I really don’t see why I should fight my way out of one set of controls just to let another tell me what to do. You may decide to jump on the proverbial gay band wagon but, as for my self I’ll walk and be myself. That is the reason I can say the things I say about gay men and can still live with myself, because I am right and I am not brainwashed in to thinking that if I don’t march in the gay pride parade, put a rainbow flag on my car, or vote democratic then I am a “bad gay”. I am just me and if that is not what you like then well too damn bad, maybe I will start myself a “Bad Gay Games” it seems to be the trend!

So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay? Has anyone ever made fun of you? Called you a sicko? Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel? What percentage of people have a negative response? And where do you live?

Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

I guess that's really just a function of our ages. I don't much have a problem with people making out in public, though I can see how it's considered rude.

Maggie - I guess we look at male and female differently. I'm not saying that Brandon didn't live as a man, just that they had the physical characteristics of a female. As for the relationship... well, I feel bad for the girl involved, 'cause she was deceived (apparently), and that's not real cool. So no, I wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship either. I'm not sure what I'd consider it.

Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sorry for the long post!!!!

Heh. Nah, I was just trying to get a sense of what the society he lives in is like.

Questions

I am going to try to keep this post short, which means only two pages.

Juju: "So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay?"
The worst would have to have been when a gaggle of idiots were driving down the street and yelled faggot and zoomed off.

JuJu "Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel?"
Yes, of course I have had negative reactions. These days you can get a negative reaction if you save an infant from drowning. There is never a way to please everyone. How did it make me feel? It didn't, I guess that is just part of how I was raised. I was raised with the belief that life is short, there are those that like you and those that don't those that do I seek out friendship, those that don't I could careless about. That by the way is the 'touchy feely' stuff I was speaking of earlier. If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned. Now I have read the scriptures they are referring to and I think they have misunderstood the verse in question but, just as we have the right to think the way we want, they have the right to think the way they want.

JuJu: "What percentage of people have a negative response?"
Well, I don't have any hard statistics but I would say about 10% have had negative reactions and 70% positive. I know that leaves 20% out, well that goes in the can tell category. Some people that know I am gay I can't tell what they think. They don't seem to react at all, to me this would go in the positive category.

On a side note, it is not the negative I have a problem with. At least when someone says " I hates fags". I know where I stand. What I hate are the ones that find out from another acquaintance that you are gay and they have to go out of there way to tell me that "It's great that you are gay" or " I have no problem with gays, I just want you to know that" those people I have no time for. They are not saying for my benefit they are doing it either because they don't want to look like a bigot or they are trying to convince themselves that what they are saying is true.

JuJu: "And where do you live?"
Well when I first realized I was gay and started my first (and only) relationship I lived in Memphis, Tennessee and Now I live just outside of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. So maybe all the flaming queens just live here in South Florida. My parents live in Mississippi and the whole town (Harmontown; Population: 75) knows and they all can't wait to see me when I get home. (Part of this is I think that they all want to say they know a gay person) but, I would hardly say it was a negative reaction. If anything it is like a one up or a bragging right, “Yeah well I got to eat lunch with a gay guy”, while I wouldn’t say they are sincere it is a much more constructive way to deal with it than typing me to a fence and setting me on fire. I think it certainly shows people are trying to change, but you cannot expect it to disappear overnight. There was one other person that lived there that was gay and everyone was *highly* denfensive of him. Once my mom called to tell me how a tourist had stopped by (The town is on the egde of a very large lake) and called 'Big Mike' a fag. Two of the local men ended up in jail for both attacking the tourist at the same time. I tried to look up the article that ran in The Oxford Eagle (local paper), but I had no luck.

So much for keeping it short.

This is <i>exactly</i> the same thing as the 'Bitch' thread. Transsexuals have their own personal definition of the word, and the rest of the world has theirs.

Most people's definition of gender is "men have penises, women have vaginas". The medical definition is, "You're female if you lack a Y chromosome". We'd have to do an informal survey to prove this, but i'm willing to bet most people feel this way.

Therefore, I unequivocly <i>win</i> the bitch thread debate. Hooray for me!!!!

Re: Questions

Well, you can "call" a relationship between a post-transition female-to-male transsexual and an unsuspecting, otherwise heterosexual woman "homosexual", but I maintain by doing so you achieve only an appearance of accuracy by completely sacrificing descriptive and predictive power. When gender is not constant, "heterosexual" and "homosexual" become multivalued terms.

I think you're all wet on the medical definition, by the way. Especially in a world with genetic mosaics, interesexed conditions, androgen-insensitivity syndrome, and peripheral hornome conversion.

I've got a notarized letter from my surgeon certifying me as a functional female., so we could count that as one medical votefor the "innie/outie" standard, I suppose. It was good enough to amend my birth certificate.

Re: Questions

I feel like a trubblemaker today

So where in this whole discussion do hermaphrodites fit in?

No one has mentioned them yet and since I count one as my friend (but I'm still wrestling with a definition for my own personal comfort) I'm looking at an empty slot (no pun intended) in the whole LBGT thing.

Maggie? Can you address this as well?

Brian

back to lurking

Re: I feel like a trubblemaker today

Re: I feel like a trubblemaker today

My personal belief is that you are more defined by what is in your brain (what you think you are and what you are attracted to) than by any dangly bits or the lack thereof.

As for hermaphrodites, what gender does your friend identify with?

IMHO

This is just my simple opinion. If you have an XY chromosome then you are male if it is YY then you are female. That is it. Simple DNA tests can be done to determine this. Now granted there are certain things that can adversely affect this such as Turner's Syndrome or Klinefelter Syndrome as well as several other unnamed and named X&Y chromosomal disorders.

If someone suffers one of these disorders then perhaps I can see where one would say they are trans-sexed. I am under the impression from looking at MaggieL that he/she does not suffer from any of the aforementioned conditions, although I could be wrong.

I know this may make some people mad but you can't just choose; there is VERY clear science on what makes a man and what makes a woman.

Besides all that. That is not what this whole thing is about it is about the absurdity of having specialized 'Gay Games" if you think about it even sounds absurd. I mean it is a free world and you can do what you want. . . .but I have the right to laugh my ass of at you doing it. Freedom has a bitchy way like that.

Here is the origin of the bits.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/sexdev.html

As you can see, it isn't as simple as XX XY, Oh and Philgump, you might want to make use of the edit function.

Re: IMHO

While I realize that sexual identification is a very complex subject, and that transvestitism is a recognized medical area, human gender is simply not nearly as fluid as MaggieL would have you believe.

No matter what sort of lifestyle you live, what sort of surgery or treatment you subject yourself to, if you were born with a Y chromosomeyou will be biologically male, and therefore (primarily) mentally male, for all of time.


What philgump is trying to say is basically, don't wear your sexual preference(or any other group identification) on your sleeve, or as a chip on your shoulder. He seems to want gays to be judged just as everyone else is, on their individual merits, not to which tribe they belong to.

MaggieL is obviously deeply involved in the gay-lesbian-transgender 'lifestyle'. She seems to think that being a member of that community means that mainstream acceptance or conformity is not only not necessary but even unacceptable. It's this sort of divisive fractionalism, this "us against them" mentality which I think is a bad idea. As long as you've divided people into "queers" and "straights" there will never be widespread acceptance of homosexuality.

For example, it isn't as simple as "homosexual" and "heterosexual". MaggieL is more Quentin Crisp, philgump is more Rock Hudson. Lumping all the "queers" together does a disserve to everyone.

This might be true.

Re: This might be true.

Hey, I"m a straight white women but I don't want to just hang out with straight white women and men. Can I have an all sector pass too?

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore I thought about that originally...some would obviously need multiple sector passes. After all, what the hell would Rho and I do?

Sin of Pride

umm I never mentioned a "Sin of Pride". I think I mentioned a "Sin of Tolerance". By the way a sin of pride is not what you think. A sin of pride does work with human situations, it only works if you are so prideful as to think that you do not need God and that you as a human can do it alone. That is the "Sin of Pride" you mentioned.

As far as he or she that is about the only pronouns I have up my sleeve unless 'IT' would be more preferable and you have already said that 'IT' was unacceptable.

I have always been taught, that you should never offer up a problem without offering up a soulution. Therefore, what pronoun do you prefer people to use when speaking about or to you.

Hmmm.

Let's not forget the Ellen deGeneris Toaster Oven Award....might make any surcharge worthwhile, if a kickback can be arranged. :-)

Sorry Mags...you lost me on that one...Toaster Oven award? Is that like an El Camino?

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore Sorry Mags...you lost me on that one...Toaster Oven award? Is that like an El Camino?

Education

I learn so much stuff on this site.

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore Putting Ellen DeGeneres and "Toaster Oven" together made me think of "El Camino," which is a term my friends and I used in referring to a bisexual. (Is it a car? Is it a truck? It's both.) Of course, now that I know what you mean, it sounds silly...but might sound more appropriate if Ellen were substituted with Anne Heche.

Original Posted by MaggieL

"So that's what the "toaster oven" thing is about. It's a joke about the mistaken idea that every queer person in the world has subscribed to a "homosexual agenda" that includes recruiting as many people to homosexuality as possible, and that this invidious campaign is so organized that there's actually a catalog from which you can select incentive awards. "

Well, this idea could not have been helped by the slogans that were (and are still) widely seen at Gay pride events and all over the Gay scene that say "10% is not enough! Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!" Think I am lying look it up just type in the quote "10% is not enough! Recruit! Recruit! Recruit!" and see the results you get.

Recruits

Who said that I thought you could be recruited? I said that signs like this have been seen in gay pride parades. I mean gays already have a bad rap when it comes to being child molesters, recruiters and perverted minds. Now granted I do not know of one gay that is a child molester, tried to recruit someone, or has a perverted mind. . . wait take that last one back. :-)

My point is if you have a reputation, even if you got it falsely you would not want to perpetuate it by egging on the accusers. (i.e. if you are the president and you are accused of sleeping with your aides, that would not be the time to take one of your aides on a Caribbean cruise.) Even though you might mean it as a joke the people viewing you are going to say “See I told you!”

Does that make sense? I just don’t think that sarcasm and facetiousness are the ways to achieve tolerance. Maybe it is just me.

Re: Recruits

I only caught the tail end of this show, but it's on again at 1am ET, and again in late December, on the Discovery Channel: Changing Sexes: Male to Female. It looks rather interesting.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tobiasly Nah, if it were sweeps, they would have combined them into a 2-hour special on transgender dwarfs.

They pay to correct other birth defects. Maggie, do they pay for procedures to correct hermaphordites?

If you go with that rationale, who will determine on a case-by-case basis, those for whom this birth defect exists?

Even if you want to make that argument, there are many types of birth defects. Insurance companies pay for life-threatening or medically necessary defects, but they don't pay for quality-of-life procedures.

Some people would consider being born ugly a birth defect. Do you think insurance companies should pay for them to have plastic surgery?

Oh, dear....yet another can of worms.

Do I think insurance "should" cover reassignment? Well....given that I consider it an effective treatment for a medically-recognized condition: yes.

Do I *expect* it? Absolutely not...I've worked for insurance companies, and given how few people this affects, what happens is they specifically exclude it in the plan language, and not enough people care about it to make them change it, so the current situation is likely to continue.

I *do* know people who have had insurance that was good enough that it was covered. As it happened, my company mereged with another just before my surgery, and we of course got the lowest-common-denominator coverage. The company we mereged with had just had an employee whose surgery was covered. Mine wasn't. C'est la vie, like I said.

Those who have or are about to hold forth on "cosmetic surgery" I remind that not all plastic surgery is "cosmetic" surgery...reconstruction after an accident, for example. There's plenty of women who have gotten breast augmentation--or reduction, for that matter--covered as "medically necessary".

As for "birth defect", there's enough controversy about that, too. Until the etiology of transsexualism is *much* better established than it is today--today there are only theories, with sketchy experimental evidence--I don't think universal acceptance of it as a "birth defect" is within realistic reach.

Typically, (and the well-moneyed folk who appeared in the Discovery channel show are *not* typical) TS folks are not in a position to engage in a long legal battle with their insurance companies to establish that reassignment surgery is "medically necessary"...especially when the insurance company is perfectly willing to invest in expert witnesses (mostly from Johns Hopkins, originally a center for treatment for gender dysphoria but now the mecca for the anti-SRS crew) who are happy to testify that it isn't.

The insurance companies will spend a *whole* lot more than the $20K or so they'd be out for covering one case to keep this one off the books. So an individual could spend *all* the money that would pay for their surgery, plus quite a bit more, and then still end up with nothing to show for it.

Personally, I thought my SRS was "medically necessary", and so-voted with $13K of my own money. I also think it should have been covered, but I do know that most people--who really have no idea what gender dysphoria is--would disagree.

Of course, I don't think I "should" have to pay for lung cancer treatment for smokers either--but have accepted that I have to, because the incidence of that is so much higher: just about everybody knows someone who killed themselves with cigarettes.

It's really a political issue--a matter of how many people something like this affects.