The Cellar Image of the Day

The result of a very brave (more probably, very stupid) dog, who attacked a Porcupine in 2005.

The Quill Queen, was most uncomfortable with over 1,300 quills in her front half. She couldnt close her mouth as her tongue was covered with quills.

Apparently, there were a lot of quills embedded that were left to work themselves out.

I feel for the naked Porcupine.

That looks like a 'sticky' situation.

I feel sorry for the puppy dog, but I guess it serves him right for attacking a porcupine. Poor porcupine. It's hard to decide which animal to feel most sorry for actually.

oooh, that's so awful!

there are porcupines living in the arroyos where I live. When walking around my old apartment complex (one hill over) I would occasionally encounter them in my nocturnal jaunts. I would attempt to nonchalantly turn around and walk--quickly--the other way!

No matter where you go on the internet, Undertoad has been there ahead of you.

I used proper grammar and punctuation to make that easier for you to quote in the Hall of Fame and Quote of the Day threads.

From quilts to quills.
Aggressive? Yes, pit bulls are commonly quite aggressive and there has been more than one instance when I would have been delighted to leave one looking like this.
Besides being a protected species and very NON-aggressive, it is nice to know the porcupine only used 1,300 of its 30,000 quills protecting itself from what appears to have been a sustained attack.
Can anyone find an update three years on?

I meant porcupines. I was responding to Cloud saying she walks away from them quickly.

Pit bulls aren't the same as bull terriers. I'd trust a bull terrier any day over a pit bull.

I don't think they are aggressive. But I don't particularly want to find out for sure.

I like to be pierced in a more . . . controlled manner.

No biggie, Ducky, did the same thing here.
Anyway, that just proves it's an IOtD worthy picture.

btw, I really appreciate the help.

I'm no expert, but in a survival book I've read it commented that porcupines were exceptionally stupid and all it took to 'hunt' them was a large stick.

I've had at least one dog and usually two my whole life. I've had a number of different breeds. The two most gentle, family oriented, and generally well behaved animals I've had were both pit bulls.

One was a pit bull/lab mix and I'll miss and talk about that dog til the day I die. I lost him to unexplained kidney failure a few years ago.

My current dog is a pit bull and possibly the most gentle, docile dog I've ever had.

Don't believe the hype on the breed. It is the owner and the training that matters most.

On the other hand, you won't find nearly as many news stories about a Golden Retriever that all of a sudden ripped some kid's face off.

Don't get me wrong, I've also met many sweet pits. I wouldn't leave one alone with my nieces though. For that matter, I wouldn't leave them alone with a little snippy yappy lap dog with short guy syndrome, either.

I've hear some people with children say they are really kind and gentle. I wouldn't leave one with my cats though.

It's all ooh and aah and pretty kitty when you're on the room.
But they just can't wait to get onto the whisker pulling, tail yanking and eye gouging...

I'd prefer to believe the bull terrier was dressing up like a porcupine for a costume party. Poor thing! And worse is knowing that if he/she sees another porcupine then it would joyfully repeat the attack. At least our dogs never learned What Happens When You Chase the Funny Smelling Black Cats With the White Stripes.

Agreed Lookout, we've had Pit Bulls and they are beautiful docile dogs when trained and loved (as opposed to tormented and taught to fight).

My parents little Fox terrier is the most intolerant little bitch you will meet.

Sundae, GrimBley (our new kittie) is quickly training my two little ferel (kids) that he wont be taking no shit from them

Oh sure, while I'm slaving over a hot board, you're out doing easy stuff, like having a baby.

Oh, I forgot how fucking stupid I am. Forgive me. Must learn to read...I just git mah information from the news shows. ET is my favorite. Jello.

Truth is, it is in the breeding. You don't see a lot of the dog fight mongers throwing a golden into the ring, unless it's to watch it get ripped into pieces.

Hopefully, you'll stay very lucky and never get one with an ounce of blood from fight-breeding.

And in the course of quoting me, try to at least add a ~snip~ when taking things out of context. kthxbai

Woof.

The problem isn't that 'dangerous' breeds are more likely to attack. The problem is in the nature of the attack if it does occur. A westie is probably just as likely to snap and go for a kiddie (I believe there was a case where a westie damn near took a baby's face off) which is why kids should never be left alone with dogs, regardless of the breed. The problem with the so-caled 'dangerous' dogs, is that on the occassions when attacks occur, whether because of mental instability or poor training, some dogs simply do more damage than others. Dogs bred for fighting, such as American Pit Bulls, or Japanese Akitas, once they attack are more likely to kill.

Any dog can snap. Any breed can be a problem. Any breed of dog has examples of, well trained dogs and likewise examples of poorly trained dogs. The chances of a dog snapping are increased if the owner has raised it improperly. That said, even well trained and beautifully raised dogs have the capacity to snap in an instant. How many times have we heard the line "but it was a beautiful family dog."?

I recall once reading about a Springer Spaniel who, after 9 years of being the beloved family pet, snapped and tore half the youngest child's face off. Why? Because it was prematurely senile. The little girl had stuck her face into the dogs for a cuddle and kiss and the dog responded instictively in a way it had never done before.

The stuff in the press is unhelpful. It suggests that there are 'safe' breeds of dog. There is no such thing as an entirely safe, entirely trustworthy dog. Some breeds, however, when they attack, do so swiftly and without follow through: i.e, they bite. Others, if they attack, do so with totality, not stopping until they have killed the one they're attacking: usually these are breeds who have been bred specifically to fight. Usually, not always.

I would no more trust a child alone with my bearded collie dog, than I would with a Rottweiler or an Akita.

It's pretty easy to find dog bite statistics by breed. This site is focused on the US, but there's some interesting information. Here's just one quote:

Quote:

The deadliest dogs

Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.
According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

Thanks for that. I just read the report. Fascinating stuff. I found the analysis of differing behaviour patterns really interesting.

Isn't one of the contributing factors for the seriousness of those breeds' bites their massive jaws and tendency to hold on no matter what?

Like alligators.

I was in a discussion with someone re: this picture before. Apparently, the general consensus is that the pic is photoshopped with many more needles than were actually there. They just photoshopped them again over and over and over. I dunno....

Quote:

Do APBT's really have 1600 psi biting pressure and locking jaws? [Information gleaned from the ADBA phamplet titled "Discover the American Pit Bull Terrier]

No, they do not have either. Dr. I Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparision to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of 'pounds per square inch' can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data."
Futhermore, Dr. Brisbin states, "The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier."

Quote:

What exactly is "gameness"?

Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours, in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration, and exhaustion. But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions, climbing up trees, or protecting their family against an armed attacker, etc. (Yes, check out Richard Stratton's books for photos of pit bulls actually climbing up the trunk of a big tree in order to nestle in the branches 15 feet off the ground.)

Quote:

THE FIGHT:

There comes a time in the life of every dog, be it a small terrier or the powerful APBT, when it will get into some sort of a scrap. Those of you who frequent dog shows for the APBT will no doubt eventually be witness to dogs getting loose and starting a fight. So, what happens when they are serious? Well, each dog will bite the other, take hold and start to shake its head punishingly. It is so serious that in most cases nothing you do will cause the dog/bitch to give up that precious hold! Nothing! Choking, shocking, etc...It just doesn't matter!

BREAKING/PARTING STICK:

Known by both names. It is a very hard piece of wood or some other material suitable for the purpose of spreading a dog's jaws apart. It is usually about 5 to 8 inches in length, wedge shaped and contoured to prevent injury to the dog's lips. Its width is about 1 to 2 inches. The electric breaking stick is much more effective and works faster without any permanent dammage to the dogs.

THE TECHNIQUE:

Okay, imagine two dogs engaged in serious combat and each one has a very good hold on the other. Now, I'm assuming there are two of you and you are both right handed.

With The Electric Break Stick, you just neet to touch any part of the dog with it and hold it until the dog lets go.

STEP 1) Walk over to the dogs and as simultaneous as possible step over, straddle and then lock your legs around the dog's hips just in front of the hind quarters. Make sure your legs are locked securely around the dog.

STEP 2) With your free/left hand grab a handful of skin from the back/nap of the neck and pull upward as if you are a mother canine picking up a young puppy. A strong grip on the skin is needed here. We are accomplishing two things, one is to neutralize the mobility of the dog by locking our legs around it's hips and the other is to neutralize mobility of the front torso by way of a skin hold on the back of the dog's neck.

Before I continue with STEP 3, let's review what has now happened. Not wanting to let go, the dogs are still holding on to each other and each handler has his dog in a tight leg squeeze just in front of the stifle/hind quarters while at the same time holding the dogs front section by way of skin on the back of the dog's neck.

Sidebar: When looking in your dog's mouth notice a gap where the teeth do not meet. This 'pre molar' area is why the breaking stick is so effective.

STEP 3) Each handler inserts his breaking stick in the pre molar area where the gap is found. Sometimes you need to work the stick just a bit if your dog is biting real hard. The stick should be inserted from 1/2 to 1 1/2 inches into the dog's mouth.

STEP 4) Now, as if you're twisting the throttle of a motor cycle, so too you must twist the breaking stick. This is the action that spreads the dog's jaws far enough apart so that you can now pull back with the other hand. Viola, the dog is off! I like to also use my legs for those big dogs when pulling them off.

It is that simple.

Now, I have a few comments about the mechanics of a dog fight. The first is that ALL dogs use their hind quarters for both leverage and mobility and it is the most important place to start when stopping a fight. Once you remove the back end from the equation you've stopped 75% of a fight. It's amazing, most of the time you'll see the dogs quit shaking and moving as soon as they feel their hind quarters locked by your legs. They almost freeze! Once their movement is under control it's super easy to grab the neck and insert the stick.

Holding the neck with your free hand helps prevent a dog from biting you while stopping the fight. I've broken lots of accidental fights and all those times I have never been bitten by an APBT. But, I have been biten by other breeds because of the way they fight.

My final comment is that with a little practice you can stop a serious dog fight in about 5 seconds, on the average. It's so easy you can't believe it, straddle/grab/break and you're finished! No unnecessary damage due to pulling, beating or whatever else one might employ!

So, the next time you're playing with your dog, open the mouth and you'll see the GAP I mentioned. Then, when you get your 'stick', just play tug-o-war or have the dog grab something and try your breaking stick then.

Quote:

These breeders (Talking about dog fight trainers) bred for a type that was extremely easy-going and docile around people and would NEVER think of biting a friendly hand, even amid the fury of a fight. A well-bred pit bull is so reliable in this respect that even if he is badly hurt in an automobile accident and is in extreme pain, he won't snap at his owner who tries to pick him up--unlike most dogs in that situation.

....any APBT that showed the least sign of aggression toward people was culled as unsuitable for breeding. Whether true or not, it was an article of faith among old-time breeders that a human-aggressive dog simply could not be dead game. In any case, such a dog would have been unsuitable for fighting purposes: no one would volunteer to be its handler or to referee the match. As a result of this careful breeding history, the APBT is an extremely easy-going, human-loving dog.

This isn't just a personal, impressionistic perspective of mine. The American Canine Temperament Testing Association is an organization that titles dogs for passing its temperament test. The test consists of putting the dog into a series of unexpected situations, some involving strangers. The dog fails the test if it shows any signs of unprovoked aggression or panic around people. Of all dogs that take the test, 77% on average pass. But among pit bulls who take the test, 95% on average pass--one of the highest passing rates of all breeds.

Pit Bulls have amazing temperaments amongst people (usually), but they can be seriously dangerous to any dogs they get into a fight with. Speaking as the owner of a dog who would not survive an encounter with a pit bull, that worries me somewhat.

There's an American Pit Bull lives near me (despite their being a banned breed). It's adorable. I got talking to its owner, asked what breed it was because the colouring really struck me and the shape of its head was beautiful. She told me "Oh it's an American Pit Bull....don't worry though, it wouldn't ever bite. Well, not a person...he'd make a mess of any dog he got hold of."

I did think as she was telling me this.....that's not right smart given its illegality. I could have been the sort of person who would phone the police or the RSPCA and let them know about this 'dangrerous dog'. The owner's a local alcoholic (nice enough lady, her and her alcy husband make their living collecting and selling junk) and I cannot see her having a licence to keep the dog.....nor was the dog muzzled.

I didn't inform the police. I did, however, warn my mum so that she wouldn't let Dante go say hello to this dog if they passed by.

The last time my dog got into a scrap with another dog (other than Dante) nether dog was hurt.....lot of rearing up and jaw snapping, bits of fur flying and over in a minute. Lot of sound and fury and no damage at the end, beyond a couple of little scratches and puncture marks that showed up later on. If Pilau got into a scrap with that American Pit Bull, I doubt he'd survive. If he did, it would no doubt be a time of extensive vet treatment.

I remember walking my westie pup when I was 12 years old. A rottweiler had got away from its owner. It ran straight at us, grabbed Dudley by the fur on his upper back and shook him like a plastic toy...threw him aside and then grabbed him again. Dudley was screaming. There was blood everywhere. I, rather stupidly, was hitting and kicking the rottweiler and trying to get dudley away. The owner eventually rolled up, shouting the dogs name and was able to get the dog to drop Dudley.

Ten years later, whilst walking her 12 month old Bichon Frise, mum had the exact same experience. Again a rottweiler. More shaking like a toy, more small-dog screaming. More heavy vet bills, more distress.

Most dogs don't fight to hurt. When they scrap they usually make a lot of noise and do only superficial damage. Some dogs, when they fight, fight for real.

[eta] I will admit to some slight unease at not warning the relevant authorities about the Pit Bull. I didn't, nor would I, as the dog would most likely be confiscated and destroyed. In the case of the American Pit Bull, the law has become too reactionary and a blunt instrument indeed. If by contacting the relevant authorities, I were to trigger a visit from the police and a warning to keep the dog muzzled outdoors, I would most likely do it. Just because I recognise the potential dangers involved in keeping certain dog breeds, doesn't mean I approve of the way the law is tackling that danger.

It is always a little surprising to find which threads get "legs," especially when one seems to have been the spark. I was purposely being dense when I responded that pit bulls were aggressive, when I knew that Aliantha meant porcupines. I also think I knew that the prickly dog was not really a pit bull, but the more venerable bull terrier.
In my area, famous for marijuana cultivation, pit bulls are common and commonly assholes, as are their owners.
I think the phenomenon is sort of the result of the perfect storm of canine breedability, capability and training. The dickwad down the street who would intimidate all the neighbors is no more likely to set his Corgy on you, than he is to carry a .22 short derringer instead of a Glock 9.
His pit bulls, instead, have been bred to have overly strong jaws and been trained to attack and hold on, both of which, in my experience, they are happy to do.

Is it just me or has this been around for a lot longer than 3 years? I'm sure this was doing the rounds when I was at Uni and I left there 8 years ago.

I saw a normally well mannered Pit bull get into a fight with a standard Poodle - neither dog won in the end. The Pit Bull wrecked that poodle and both had to be put down. I had seen this dog a 100 times before this incident and he was always well behaved and well mannered. Still don't know why he snapped that one day.

I think the challenge most people have with pits and other larger breeds is the amount of damage they can do when they decide they're going to have a go. A yippy dog is generally not going to inflict anywhere near the amount of damage unless it's on a small child, and everyone already knows you shouldn't leave any dog alone with kids. Particularly small ones (kids).

As I mentioned previously, I'm sure there are nice pitbulls out there. I've just never met one. In fact, the one that came closest used to live next door, but we had a situation one night where the neighbours came over for a few drinks and the dog followed (escaped their yard). We didn't worry too much. Our dogs didn't care, but then the neighbours decided to go home, but the dog didn't want to go. The owner - who loved the dog and treated him well etc. Did everything right as far as training and obedience was concerned - tried to get him up and he flat out refused. At stronger urging, the dog then bared his teeth and set himself to stay for the night. In the end, the only way he got the dog to move was to spray it with water. It was either that or get bitten.

They 'lost' the dog soon after that, even though they loved him and thought he was fantastic.