Undertoad Wednesday Feb 21 09:38 AM
February 21, 2007: Youngest surviving premature baby
Elspode Wednesday Feb 21 09:46 AM
Amazing. I would be most interested in following her development, to see what lingering effects she had from her premature birth.
Kitsune Wednesday Feb 21 10:53 AM
Doesn't look real. Amazing.
Undertoad Wednesday Feb 21 11:20 AM
Oh Kit... that image just might earn you a nomination in the funniest Cellar male category
lawman Wednesday Feb 21 01:07 PM
there's been a lot of studies correlating low birth weight babies and criminal behaviour later in life, probably due to the underdeveloped brain causing lack of self restraint, lower intelligence, and other challenges.
Orca Wednesday Feb 21 01:10 PM
Just WOW. I to am an October baby and was very small at birth. But I was full term and aint so small now. Anybody know why she was taken at 22 weeks? I didn't think a baby could survive that early. Will hug my girls extra tonight.
Happy Monkey Wednesday Feb 21 01:42 PM
Cloud Wednesday Feb 21 01:42 PM
I have mixed feelings about this, similar to misgivings about "extraordinary measures" taken at the other end of life.
Clodfobble Wednesday Feb 21 05:46 PM
Kitsune Wednesday Feb 21 06:08 PM
Gee, who would have thought a baby raised in a household where a parent smokes crack might grow up to commit crimes?
Spexxvet Wednesday Feb 21 07:37 PM
tw Wednesday Feb 21 08:09 PM
Imagine the poor kid born in a test tube. With so much love for glass as always be in front of mirrors.
monster Wednesday Feb 21 11:07 PM
She certainly is a fighter, making it home before her due date.
monster Wednesday Feb 21 11:16 PM
what cf and kit said and....
"probably due to....."
is this your opinion or has (sic) there been a lot of studies on probable cause too? If so, interested to read these papers. My anecdotal evidence is of preemies being exceptionally bright. But then those I know are mostly the children of academics who sprogged later in life -a factor also correlated with preemies.
Bromskloss Thursday Feb 22 05:56 AM
What is the source for these images?
Katkeeper Thursday Feb 22 08:32 AM
I smoked and drank during pregnancy, and UT was the result. I did both in moderation, however.
Undertoad Thursday Feb 22 08:49 AM
These are wire service images widely available on the net; the actual source is from the hospital itself and there was no photo credit. I think this shot may have come from a daily gallery like MSNBC's, but I forget.
ajaccio Thursday Feb 22 09:29 AM
Not actually the youngest.
Shawnee123 Thursday Feb 22 10:20 AM
Those feet make me kind of ill.
CharlieG Thursday Feb 22 05:04 PM
I had a co-worker that I have since lost touch with, but when his daughter was born, she was something like 18 oz, and something like 24-25 weeks. Last time I ran into him, she was like 12 years old, and doing well...
xoxoxoBruce Thursday Feb 22 11:05 PM
Wonder if ajaccio's ex-boyfriend or CharlieG's cow orker's kid are criminals?
SeanAhern Friday Feb 23 10:16 PM
Okay, I'm going to betray some of my political leanings here (and probably bring this forum into a quagmire), but I just have to ask...
xoxoxoBruce Friday Feb 23 11:21 PM
If you wait too long, they are too cumbersome to fit the clay pigeon thrower, liable to choke even a big dog, and awfully stinky.
tw Friday Feb 23 11:27 PM
The minute you entertain your emotions, then all this is relevant. Those most opposed to abortions also support Israeli stealing of Palestinian land and other acts of aggression only because these moral people want Armageddon. Why do these same people who worry about a few dead babies also have no problem advocating a massacre of most Jews in Israel - Armageddon? You opened the can of worms with the predicate of your question. You tell me who more moral - or are they really only lying to themselves to entertain their emotional biases?
Meanwhile, how can thousands of human life be murdered in fertility clinics? Another perfect example of reasoning based only in emotional bias.
Undertoad Saturday Feb 24 05:41 AM
Very few abortions take place at this point 5 1/2 months in. The current legal point is close to that.
Aliantha Saturday Feb 24 05:47 AM
Giving birth to a baby 240 cm in length would be very painful.
Undertoad Saturday Feb 24 05:52 AM
SPUCK Saturday Feb 24 05:58 AM
not if it was snake shaped...
SeanAhern Saturday Feb 24 07:03 AM
I also don't want to conflate too many issues. A discussion about abortion can go in many directions, but diving into the politics of war can sometimes muddy the waters.
The legal line for abortions in the U.S. is "viability." English common law had it at "quickening", which is somewhere around 20-24 weeks. But Roe vs. Wade codified it at about 7 months (28 weeks), or specifically, "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."
But you have to watch out for the "viability" argument. Given the photograph that we're having this discussion under, it's clear that we're getting better and better at being able to care for children at earlier and earlier stages of gestation. There are even people working (in Japan) on artificial wombs. Some time in the future, we're likely to have the ability to have a fetus be viable outside the womb mere days after conception. I wouldn't want our definition of who is worthy to live be based upon what current technology we have around.
Anyway, sorry to mire the conversation down. I just wanted to get people thinking.
Kitsune Saturday Feb 24 09:09 AM
tw Saturday Feb 24 12:50 PM
We put up borders in a hope to maximize the value of life – to make decisions easier. That does not mean all humans should live. Some defective fetuses are more humanly terminated before a cognizant life form exists. Is that lump in a guy's hand a human - or just a lump of cells? I see a lump of cells that could become a human life - but is not a cognizant life form.
We treasure things that can grow to be something great - that have the potential for great value. And that is the difference between a realist and the emotional types. I see a picture that is only a picture of reality. The minute I have emotions about that picture - I become my own worst enemy. I value life far more than those who 'feel'. Therefore I have no problem when some fetuses have value and other do not.
Who is to decide? Well either no one or someone. Everything we do is a statistical estimate. But again, where do emotions appear. Never if one has greater respect for life. We train people logically to make better decisions. Making no decisions can be a most inhuman thing we might do.
Where does emotion enter? After brutally demanding irrefutable facts and after drawing conclusions from those facts; only then do we compare those conclusions with an emotion. If the emotion says something is wrong, we throw out everything and do a hard, unemotional, and logical analysis again to find a possible mistake. That is where emotion belongs in decision making. I 'feel' there is something wrong. Therefore we analyze it again to either find the logical error, or to discover we have emotional biases adverse to society and mankind.
Those who were racists discovered they were racists - classic decision based only in emotion - when doing hard logical analysis (or confronted by significant examples). Eventually discovering their emotions were wrong. Since they were not thinking logically, then they were racists.
Emotion is a circuit breaker - a warning or safety device that something may be wrong. When emotion is part of a decision process, then we become our own worst enemies. Why are we wasting hundreds of thousands in Iraq? That too came from decisions based only in emotion – total denial of facts. Decisions based in emotion make one his own worst enemy.
He did not say, “I feel, therefore I am”.
Spexxvet Saturday Feb 24 01:16 PM
Spexxvet Saturday Feb 24 01:21 PM
SeanAhern Saturday Feb 24 06:20 PM
The issue has never really been about what a woman chooses to do with her own body. It's deciding whether she has the right to choose what to do with someone else's body. The issue is the "personhood" of the life within her. It's not her body we're discussing, really. It has to do with defining when society deems the life within her to have reached a state where it is deserving of the legal protections of people.
In lieu of having being able to have a longer discussion, I'm going to have to point to one of the more rational thinkers of the last few decades, Carl Sagan, who struck a middle ground in this debate. Much of his logic is sound, and provides a good basis to argue from: http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml
xoxoxoBruce Saturday Feb 24 06:38 PM
SeanAhern Saturday Feb 24 06:42 PM
xoxoxoBruce Saturday Feb 24 06:59 PM
If you cut off her hand and gave it the necessary nutrients, it to would survive.
Kitsune Saturday Feb 24 10:36 PM
What if we provided a turd with necessary nutrients?
xoxoxoBruce Sunday Feb 25 05:20 AM
Nope, the turd's already dead. :p
milkfish Sunday Feb 25 07:20 AM
How unpleasant. How about we talk about the world's oldest surviving premature baby (40 weeks minus 1 second) instead?
xoxoxoBruce Sunday Feb 25 09:19 AM
Do you mean fetus or baby?
richlevy Sunday Feb 25 11:56 AM
Spexxvet Sunday Feb 25 12:03 PM
Aliantha Sunday Feb 25 07:10 PM
Arguing about whether it's the personhood that's the issue or the woman with the little clump of cells inside her is an argument much akin to the chicken or the egg discussion.
xoxoxoBruce Monday Feb 26 04:55 AM
Ha Ha Ha, I read that post then looked down at the cookie at the bottom of the page, which read;
Sundae Monday Feb 26 12:35 PM
In 2005 only 1.4% of all terminations in the UK occured at over 20 weeks. 67% were performed at under 10 weeks, 89% at under 13 weeks
The NHS limit in functional terms is 19 weeks. Terminations beyond this point are not undertaken by most hospitals or clinics and the overnight stay necessary may lead to waiting times. In other words it is a serious procedure that needs to be planned in advance and thought through carefully. The second scan takes place at 20 weeks and the small number of terminations at this point may be as a result of something discovered at this point.
Although the image of those little gummy feet is indeed a powerful one, I still wouldn't see a termination at that stage to be murder. I do not believe a foetus is a child. Perhaps the fact that babies can survive at 22 weeks would be better used to prompt pro-lifers into accepting the need for better access to early stage terminations.